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Cooling System Upgrades for Ideola's Ultra Wide Body 931
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ideola  



Joined: 01 Oct 2004
Posts: 15451
Location: Woodstock IL

PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 11:26 pm    Post subject: Cooling System Upgrades for Ideola's Ultra Wide Body 931 Reply with quote

Here is what I have planned so far:
- Craig Davies Electric Water Pump (continuous mode)*
- Craig Davies Electric Booster Pump for the turbo**
- Craig Davies Thermatic Fan(s)
- Custom/modified bypass pipe***
- Heater delete
- Aluminum 951 racing radiator from Wizard Cooling
- New OEM 951 expansion tank

The radiator really has me in a quandary right now. I know I can order the Ron Davis version like Rasta's at a cost of ~$625. However, in my situation, I don't need a drop-in replacement because I will be completely reworking the front mounting points with custom fabricated brackets and such. That said, I also have a brand new in box 924S radiator.
- What other options should I consider for the radiator?
- Can I get a less expensive alternative to the RD rad since I don't need stock replacement?
- If I went completely custom, what would be the "ultimate" specs, in terms of # of passes, frontal area / dimensions, construction, etc.?
- Also, should I get a stock replacement 931 expansion tank, a stock replaceent 944/951 tank, or an aftermarket universal tank (again, considering I'm not constrained by stock replacement & mounting)?
- How many and what size fans should I use? (The CD fans cost less than Spal and have similar specs)

* Note: I'm planning to gut the stock water pump & remove the thermostat. The primary pump will run in continuous mode, as I've read several reports of the CD controller failing, and besides, this is a race car.
** Note: It's looking very good that my hybrid K26/27 turbo will have a water-cooled bearing housing, so I am planning to run a booster pump for it.
*** Note: I like what Roger did to his bypass pipe:

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88 924S SE | 82 931 Holbert | 81 Euro 931 | 81 Weissach | 80 US 928 | 80 US 931 '941' | 78 D-Prod Replica | 78 w/D-Prod kit | 78 Poli-Form | 78 Limited Edition


Last edited by ideola on Sat May 09, 2009 5:39 am; edited 2 times in total
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Rasta Monsta  



Joined: 12 Jul 2006
Posts: 11378
Location: PacNW

PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2008 2:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you're ditching CIS, thus creating a bunch of space up front, I would have Davis fab up the thickest core that will fit.
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ideola  



Joined: 01 Oct 2004
Posts: 15451
Location: Woodstock IL

PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2008 2:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not ditching CIS initially, but slightly relocating the dizzy. Also, the entire front of the car will be reworked, so thickness won't be a concern.

I'm at work right now, so I can't go out and measure. Do you happen to know the dimensions of the RD unit you used???
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88 924S SE | 82 931 Holbert | 81 Euro 931 | 81 Weissach | 80 US 928 | 80 US 931 '941' | 78 D-Prod Replica | 78 w/D-Prod kit | 78 Poli-Form | 78 Limited Edition
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Rasta Monsta  



Joined: 12 Jul 2006
Posts: 11378
Location: PacNW

PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2008 2:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The core was two rows of 1' tubing.
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bass gt  



Joined: 02 Dec 2004
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Location: Johannesburg for now!!

PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2008 2:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dan,

As you know, those are the pumps myself and Simon are using. Concerning the rad, i would say that a 951 unit wold be ideal. The rad is not an issue, rather balancing the teperatures between the front and rear of the head. If you upsize the piping from the back of the head, it all works beautifully. I have measured the temps and have a difference of 2 deg. C front to rear!! As you know, cyl #4 was prone to destruction due to detonation caused by high temps. This mod cures this nicely!!

Steve
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ideola  



Joined: 01 Oct 2004
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Location: Woodstock IL

PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2008 3:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steve
Duly noted on the size of the piping. That's certainly something I can address when I fab up my version of Roger's pipe pictured above...

Regarding the 951 rad, brand new they are ~$400, which is less than the Ron Davis drop-in replacement, but I thought they had the plastic end tanks, which are less than desirable. For that kind of money or not much more, I think I might be able to get a fully aluminum unit.

OTOH, in this post, Gohim indicates that the 924S rad is the same as the late 944. He (unfortunately) doesn't indicate if it is the same as the same era 951, but if it were, I already have an 87-88 924S rad, so that could be very cost-effective route!

Also, what are your thoughts regarding the expansion tank? Just looking at the system, it seems the best placement will be the battery tray, as this will be vacated by my rear-ward located battery. The next best alternative would seem to be the 944-style expansion tank. Just wondering if it's worthwhile to drop the extra $$ on a lightweight aluminum tank vs. the stock plastic version. The alum 944 tanks from Lindsey are VERY spendy.
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88 924S SE | 82 931 Holbert | 81 Euro 931 | 81 Weissach | 80 US 928 | 80 US 931 '941' | 78 D-Prod Replica | 78 w/D-Prod kit | 78 Poli-Form | 78 Limited Edition
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Rasta Monsta  



Joined: 12 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2008 3:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bass gt wrote:
If you upsize the piping from the back of the head, it all works beautifully.


Hmm. . .got pics/specs?
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tuurbo  



Joined: 09 Aug 2007
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Location: East Windsor, New Jersey

PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2008 3:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mind if I ask how much boost and power you're intending for this project?

I think, if you're into it, that weld or solder stuff that melts at 800 degrees and can be used with a blow torch would be ideal if you just wanted to fabricate one yourself out of the same stuff Lindsey uses. After all, there's a bleed from the cap, isn't there? Then you just have to deal with the cost of aluminum ($).

http://www.durafix.com/

If you're not into that scene and just want a tank try maybe JEGS?


Last edited by tuurbo on Thu May 01, 2008 3:49 am; edited 1 time in total
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Raceboy  



Joined: 01 Mar 2004
Posts: 2318
Location: Estonia, Europe

PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2008 3:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

924S/944 rad is almost the same as 951 unit, difference is IIRC 2 rows. I removed plastic end tanks and welded aluminium ones instead.
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ideola  



Joined: 01 Oct 2004
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Location: Woodstock IL

PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2008 3:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tuurbo wrote:
Mind if I ask how much boost and power you're intending for this project?

Hope you have some time on your hands for some light reading Start here. Liberally cross-referenced to various detailed threads on each of the major systems I'm developing for the car (hybrid turbo, intercooler, top end, bottom end, etc.).
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88 924S SE | 82 931 Holbert | 81 Euro 931 | 81 Weissach | 80 US 928 | 80 US 931 '941' | 78 D-Prod Replica | 78 w/D-Prod kit | 78 Poli-Form | 78 Limited Edition
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tuurbo  



Joined: 09 Aug 2007
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PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2008 3:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok so you're intending on somewhere around 9 or 10 PSI.

I did not know the car got that hot from that kind of boost, but I guess with the dollars you are investing you intend to drive it pretty hard and expect reliability.
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ideola  



Joined: 01 Oct 2004
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PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2008 3:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tuurbo wrote:
Ok so you're intending on somewhere around 9 or 10 PSI.


Uhhh....read the whole thread...I'm targeting 350 BHP. Based on my hybrid turbo and other factors, I estimate I'll need a minimum of 15 psi boost to achieve my goals...
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tuurbo  



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PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2008 4:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ahh ok I saw the part about leading up to 9 or 10. So if you are at 15 PSI it all makes sense. Thanks.
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bass gt  



Joined: 02 Dec 2004
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PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2008 6:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rasta Monsta wrote:
bass gt wrote:
If you upsize the piping from the back of the head, it all works beautifully.


Hmm. . .got pics/specs?


Rasta,

I have a 32mm pipe connected tothe rear of the head. This joins to the pipe from the front of the head. I machined an adapter to fit this pipe to the head, which replaces the stock temp sensor/heater output flange.
I don't have any pics at the moment, but will try to take some when i return home.

Steve
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emoore924  



Joined: 13 Apr 2004
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PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2008 9:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd be interested in hearing more about the BOTH (back of the head) piping change, with how-to, and pics if they're handy. I sort of understand what you've done, but I can't quite visualise it without some more info.

THANKS!
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