924Board.org

[F3ARED]

Finally got around to having a bit of a play with my 924 and if Im honest, Im not really liking what Im finding. When I bought it I obviously knew it had been hit in the front right hand corner as there was evidence of it having been repaired. Didnt really think anything of it too much as I have had cars racked square before and it isnt as scary or as expensive as it sounds. Im yet to run a proper tape measure over it yet but a quick run with the tape tells me it may be slightly out when measuring diagonally from the rear most gaurd bolt hole to the front most opposite bolt hole - prelim measurements are giving me a 5mm variance. I know its a moot point really concerning myself too much with the measurements at this point until i get someone to give me a hand to make sure the tape is centred 100% over the holes, so we will just ignore that for the time being. What I AM concerned with is the way the repair in the past was done.

The giveaway that the car had been hit before was the lack of the stamped VIN number on the firewall; before anyone panics about it having being rebirthed, in Australia it is common practice that if the factory chassis/vin number is lost over the course of the repair [ie the panel it is on was removed and replaced] the car is reissued with a surrogate number on the shock tower. Obviously this indicates a substantial hit and given the complexity of the repair, it was probably sometime when the car was new or new-ish.

What i suspect has happened is the front corner of the car has been cut off from the bumper mount, through the firewall and down to the floor, including cutting through and welding the chassis rail. Please excuse the shitty pictures, its dark.

Cut through bumper mount area







Inner gaurd seam-welded to firewall





Ripples in driver side rail near exhaust manifold - are they all like this?



And finally the part causing me most concern...





Rusty looking mig-weld running diagonally through the chassis rail [to left of screwdriver]. The reason that obviously sticks out is being a galvanized chassis, the weld shouldnt rust unless it came AFTER the car was galvanized. Does anyone have a clearer picture of this area? I cant seem to find one online and i cant get under the car on the passenger side without moving things first to compare it. The one photo I can find online isnt very clear but appears to show a small section of rail spot welded to the rest of the rail, running inline with the seam between firewall and floor [hopefully that made sense]. Clearly, on my car, its been cut and welded just AFTER this join....therefore weakening it.

Is anyone more familiar with these chassis able to provide clearer pics of these areas so I have something to compare to? As it stands, i think im staring down the barrel of needing a new shell.

N-
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1977 Porsche 924
1987 Range Rover Classic 3.5L V8

[Cedric]

Looks like a significant amount of welding and reparing has been carried out that shouldnt be there, and the bent frame rail looks pretty bad, it shouldnt have a bulge like that. So much rust on an australian car would have been surprising if the car was non repaired.

Not sure what the cars are worth down there and what the prices are for a shell, but it seem like it would need quite some effort to get it good again.
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1980 924 Turbo
www.instagram.com/garagecedric/

[Mike9311]

This looks like you would need to do some serious work

Does this help in any way?




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1980 931 since 1989
1981 Ideola 931 Club Sport
1982 931 Entwicklungsfahrzeug
1979 924 NA ohne 650 mit 471
1982 931 Red Resurrection - 951 IC
1982 931 parts car / resurrection?
1980 924 NA (R&D lightweight)
1982 931 wana-be GTR race car

[Mclaren924]

I hope whoever did that much welding had a respirator or vent running... You'd surely be sicker than a dog for a while with all that galvanized steel work. Nothing is impossible, just need enough money and time.
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1980 931 "Salt" Bucket wannabe racer (Dreaming)
1979 924 Sebring "Pepper" -Sold
1977 924 Slicktop "Pennie"-Most likely parts
1979 3/5 gt clone 924- Shop Test Car

[F3ARED]

Had a lot of time on my hands today to trawl through the internet and have come up with a somewhat revised theory. Long and the short of it, it looks like I may have dodged a bullet and the only real issue is the ugly weld between inner gaurd and firewall.

Found this on Rennlist in a thread about fixing accident damage:

"As a point of reference, in a prior life, my car had been in in a front-end collision that I think was very similar to yours: the right frame rail was crumpled and bent in front of the shock tower and the left rail was pulled slightly to the right. The PO had the car repaired prior to me purchasing it, but whoever did it did a crappy job. They pulled the right rail roughly back into position, but tore the metal in the process and didn't bother to repair it. The other rail they just ignored.

After discovering the problem (and vowing never to go back to the place that did my PPI) I took the car to a body shop and they welded the right rail and put the car on a jig and pulled everything back into alignment. Interestingly, they said in order to fix the rail they had to cut a hole in the opposite side (towards the wheel well) and weld in a diamond-shaped plate to the back-side of the tear. Once they were done they claimed that everything was within 1mm of the Porsche spec. Total cost was about $1100 back in 2007, but I did all the work to pull the motor and clear out the front end.

This was the light bulb that went off in my head as when I had a previous car racked it kept springing back once tension was released until it was stretched far enough for for part of the floor pan to tear. Decided to get the wire wheel out and have a bit of a play. Feel a fair bit better about everything now.



Notice the weld doesnt go the whole way around the rail? This indicates to me that it may have torn whilst being pulled back into shape and it hasnt been cut through/welded [which is a big no-no in Australia since the mid 80s]. Its torn just fore of where the factory spot welds join the rail from engine bay to under floor which makes sense to me. This also supports the bulge Cedric pointed out on the rail; its not so much of a bulge as it is a ripple in person [crappy phone camera and bad lighting]. It looks like it sustained some damage as a result of the accident and wasnt "dressed" when repaired. Again, makes sense to me as we technically arent allowed to weld or apply heat to chassis rails in Aus.

I also suspect that the seam weld that now joints the inner arch to the firewall is actually as a result of this area of the car seperating/tearing whilst on the rack and that this was the only real way to be able to weld the panels back together.

As far as the cut in the front near the bumper mount, I think ive figured out too. This was actually the reason why I thought the car had had its front right corner cut off and probably why I jumped the gun when I saw the weld on the rail. Its #15 on the diagram, or Body End Plate. Some time with the wire wheel revealed all the spot welds have been drilled through at some point and re attached, with the most damaged section [the RHS corner] being cut off and either straightened or replaced.










Its not over yet. Need to check squareness tomorrow but it looks like it can be saved and I got myself into a fluff by jumping the gun

Cedric, a replacement shell would be easier provided you could find one without any hidden surprises at a reasonable price. The problem with Porsches in Australia is that due to the high cost [both when new and in decades since], desirability and galvanized body, the actual survival rate is quite high. The 924 still remains the unloved ugly duckling in Aus but prices are still all over the joint; cheapest Ive seen was just under 5k for an admittedly running but rough car - i paid $2500 for mine. Next cheapest [currently on market] is an NA [albiet a complete running driving car] for 10k. Cheapest 944 ive seen in the last 24months is currently 11k. Theres even currently a 931 Turbo aus-delivered resto project for $12500. Unless a complete car turns up again for sub 5k the tide is still in favour of me fixing this one.

Mike, didnt have that drawing/diagram. Thanks for that.
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1977 Porsche 924
1987 Range Rover Classic 3.5L V8

[F3ARED]

Finally got a chance to get an assistant into the garage and give the car a good going over with the tape measure. Diagrams used were those provided by Mike and the one below for 944. Only measured horizontal distances at this point; did not measure any of the verticles to see if the chassis is twisted upwards but at this point I dont believe it is/isnt an area of concern.




Findings are as follows, starting from the REAR section of the engine compartment using the above factory diagram for 944 chassis:


-Rear-most guard mounting hole, drivers side to rear-most guard passenger side. Factory specification 1383mm; measured dimension 1383mm

-Rear-most guard mounting hole drivers side, diagonal to rear inner strut mounting hole passenger side. Specified dimension 1251; measured dimension 1251mm.

-Rear-most guard mounting hole passenger side, diagonal to rear inner strut mounting hole drivers side. Specified dimension 1251; measured dimension 1251.

-Front inner strut mounting bolt drivers side, to front inner mounting bolt passenger side; specified dimension 852mm; measured dimension 852mm

-Front inner strut mounting bolt drivers side, to furthest forward guard mounting hole drivers side. Specified dimension 498mm, measured dimension 498mm

-Front inner strut mounting bolt passengers side, to furthest forward guard mounting hole passenger side. Specified dimension 498mm, measured dimension 498mm.

-Rear-most guard bolt hole drivers side, diagonal to furthest forward guard hole passenger side. Specified dimension 1717mm; measured dimension 1721mm

-Rear-most guard bolt hole passenger side, diagonal to furthest forward guard hole drivers side. Specified dimension 1717mm, actual dimension 1708mm

-Front inner strut mounting bolt drivers side, to furthest forward guard hole passenger side. Specified dimension 1166mm, actual measurement 1165mm

-Front inner strut mounting bolt passenger side, to furthest forward guard hole drivers side. Specified dimension 1166mm, actual measurement 1155mm

-Furthest forward bolt hole front guard drivers side, to furthest forward bolt hole front guard passenger side. Factory dimension 1300mm, measured dimension 1304mm

-Bumper mount/chassis rail center line to center line to centreline. Specified dimension 686 +/-3mm; actual measurement 685.


Using Mikes supplied diagram;

-Dimension A, Side member locating hole, front. Factory dimension 710mm +/- 3mm. Measured dimension 713mm.

-Dimension H, Forward rail hole to outter control arm. Unable to do this measurement as to do so accurately would require the front cross member to be removed



Apologize if that was an absolute cluster-f*ck to read; i did my best to try and describe which one I was measuring given that Porsche kindly didnt provide description nor an easier way of identifying which bit im describing.

To me the critical dimensions [strut towers, chassis rails, diagonal to rear mounting holes near firewall] are square. Short of dimension H not being able to be measured, i will make the assumption that none of the above is any cause for concern in relation to the chassis and suspension. The dimensions that ARENT in line with factory dimensions all seem to relate to the front guard hole locations. I suspect that the inner guard, particularly drivers side, may be slightly askew hence throwing the dimensions out. The passenger side diagonal is close enough to factory specified [+4mm for long diagonal, -1mm for short from strut tower] to potentially just be an error in measurement [engine is still in car, slight bend in tape measure]. The drivers side however is out a substantial amount [-9mm both sides] which would suggest to me that its the drivers side guard bolt hole that is the cause of the discrepancies and is twisted slightly IN towards middle of the car. Im of the opinion that the discrepancy here isnt of too much concern given that it has no bearing on the suspension/structure of the chassis and will only affect final panel fit and fit which can be relatively easily rectified. This leaves only the ripple in the chassis rail as noted by Cedric and the seam weld on the firewall as the only points of concern going forward.

If you are still with me at this point - penny for your thoughts? Given that im new to the 9x4 chassis, im unsure where the areas of weakness or failure are which makes it hard for me to make a judgement with any conviction.

Cheers

N-
_________________
1977 Porsche 924
1987 Range Rover Classic 3.5L V8