924Board.org

[Grenadiers]

Hey, after trying out the Kuhmo Ecsta Supra's, and those all season tires I bought from Flosho, I'm looking at new tires.

One thing I noticed when driving the Spiker at the local track here in New Mexico, is that I suck. Ok, that doesn't tell much! What I found is, is that I understeer too much because I throttle around the corners. Hence, there is not much traction to turn those corners. There is a good paragraph from Vic Elford about that same idea in the Panorama November issue. Met Vic down here on the October 22nd weekend at the track.

'...as you accelerate from the apex out of a corner the amount of acceleration possible is controlled by the amount of steering being used. In other words, at the apex of a corner where the steering is at its maximum, aggressively opening the throttle will cause a violent weight transfer toward the rear of the car leaving the front wheels with little traction and therefore little steering ability; and if you insist on keeping the throttle wide open in that situation, the car will simply understeer straight off the road! '

Ok, sound advise. However, I don't plan on anything more than track days, so do not want to spend 2-300ea dollars on track tires. Just looking for something that will hold the road, albeit, with less throttle around those corners, that offers more traction than what I already have.

I have the staggered D90s 16x8 and 16x7 and have 16x6 trashcans on all four corners. Was thinking of using the 16x6s with 225/55/16s all around with something that would be a bit more sticky on the track. And, last quite a long time! What does the collective think? Thanks, dave.
_________________
'83 944 Track car.
'88 924S Track car.
'89 944 Turbo
2004 Winnebago Vectra monster RV
2012 Jeep Wrangler
2014 Kia Soul
2001 Ford F350 powerstroke

[captainspaulding]

Toyo RA1s. I love them. They are the spec tire for NASA 944 spec and other NASA racing series.

Great grip, they are tough and last a long time. Last time I checked they are priced pretty well.

FYI. My friends that own NASA Rocky mountain just took over NASA Texas and we plan on holding events in NM. I do tech for NASA so maybe I will run into you one at one of these events.

kyle
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1994 VW Golf sport rally cross beast
2003 Dodge ram 2500 cummins family hauler
NASA tech insp Texas region
NASA comp license and certified nut case

[Grenadiers]

That would be cool, give me a heads-up if you happen to wander into NM! I'll check out the Toyo's.
_________________
'83 944 Track car.
'88 924S Track car.
'89 944 Turbo
2004 Winnebago Vectra monster RV
2012 Jeep Wrangler
2014 Kia Soul
2001 Ford F350 powerstroke

[Rasta Monsta]

[Fifty50Plus]

^+1 on Rasta and Toyo tires. We run them on the enduro car for grip and longevity. Purple Crack for sprints.
Chuck
_________________
1979 924 NA race car H-Prod SCCA
1982 924 NA race car - Sold
1981 924 Turbo sold
1982 924 Turbo sold
1972 911 E race car - traded for Cayenne Diesel
1975 914 1.8 Building for H-Prod SCCA

[Grenadiers]

5. Learn to Fu..king drive.

Yup, that's probably the one! I was just tired of seeing the FWD cars, and the super cars push/pull their way thru the corners faster than me, when I have this cornering machine! But, being the noob that I am, more track time is warranted. There's another track day on December 11th, will attend.

And yes, a toofah meet in the spring would be great fun down here!

Here is the website for the track to keep 'track' of the 2011 events.

http://arroyosecoraceway.com/index.html
_________________
'83 944 Track car.
'88 924S Track car.
'89 944 Turbo
2004 Winnebago Vectra monster RV
2012 Jeep Wrangler
2014 Kia Soul
2001 Ford F350 powerstroke

[datatrain]

"You need to start experimenting with trail braking. . .these cars love it."


I second the motion.
_________________
'78 924 NA with Collector plate
33 year old car, with me for 21 yrs
Mint '92 318i BMW
Near mint '98 Buick LeSabre
VE7HFR

[datatrain]

Approaching the corner in a straight line brake at the traction limit. (threshold braking) As you reach the point were you begin turning into the corner, begin to ease off the the brakes as you turn the steering wheel. The more you turn the wheel the more you ease the brakes. (trail braking), until you are completely off the brakes. At this point your vehicle should be at the the tires maximum cornering traction limit. As you start to unwind the steering coming out of the corner, you start to increase the acceleration until you are at full throttle. out onto the straight.
_________________
'78 924 NA with Collector plate
33 year old car, with me for 21 yrs
Mint '92 318i BMW
Near mint '98 Buick LeSabre
VE7HFR

[Grenadiers]

Well, this nasty little track has a series of corners/esses, that really want to slow you down! Here's a pic of it.


_________________
'83 944 Track car.
'88 924S Track car.
'89 944 Turbo
2004 Winnebago Vectra monster RV
2012 Jeep Wrangler
2014 Kia Soul
2001 Ford F350 powerstroke

[fiat22turbo]

My mom lives in Belen (she's a home designer that specializes in ZERI certified building techniques) and she's told me about this track (she used to drive my brothers around in a Bugeye Sprite, so she's a petrol head)

I'd probably be up for a track day out there.

As for driving, these might help:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n5rpFXdWtK4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2yH6JHl42U

http://www.youtube.com/user/DriverSkillsTV#p/u/2/Y8HvoGWHdiY

Specifically watch this guy's feet:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klMur6TPkrM

and notice the difference with Senna:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8By2AEsGAhU

Some quick tips:

Look up. Always look up, your body will automatically follow your eyes, look where you want to go. Since you want to be fast and smooth, look as far down the road as you can.

Get your braking and gear changes done before you turn the wheel towards the apex of the corner. Focus on finding marks to use for your brake and turn-in markers and use them.

Once you turn in, try to hold the steering wheel still until you reach the exit of the corner. Try to make it one long arc. This doesn't work with every corner or car, but it is a good way to start with unfamiliar corners.

Be Patient. Once you turn into a corner, you want to get back on the gas because coasting is kinda boring. Don't. Like Sir Jackie said, don't put your foot on the gas until you know you don't have to take it off again. As you get faster, you'll coast less and less.

Practice. Go to your local Kart track (indoor or outdoor) and rent their Karts. Practice these techniques. You can also practice some of these techniques on the street, at street speeds. Work on getting smooth on your gear changes, heel & toe braking and looking up the road where you want to go.

Don't be afraid to find that limit. If you've not fallen off the track, then you've not found the limit. The fun part is that as you begin going through the corners faster and faster, you go into each corner faster and faster and you have to adjust your brake markers. Don't just blow past the limit, you want to work up to it slowly.

Finally, buy some books, videos, etc on the subject and see if you can get some time with an instructor.

I've been practicing this stuff for years and years and I'm still nowhere near as fast as I'd like. Mostly because I'm not consistent enough in applying the techniques above, so it isn't just you that feels slow
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Stefan
1979 924 Carrera GTS (clone-ish)
1988 944 Turbo S (Silver Rose)

[POORscheMAN]

Probably the most amazing footwork youll ever see is in this video of Walter Rohrl in his Audi quattro

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DbU4GZkt7ig
_________________
1978 924
Audi 5K Throttle Body - 10:1 comp
Stage 1 Cam -MSD coil- Crane XR700 ignition - Headers
260# springs -26mm rear TBars-
poly bushings -Weltmeister sway bars

1980 924 N/A -- stock
1982 931
1988 944
1994 968 M030

[Mmagus]

I am running Toyo R1-R's (140 tread wear to keep me in class, the RA-1's would bump me) I love them, great consistancy, durability, and handling.

You may be doing much of this..but just in case.

Seat time is your friend as you well know. Beyond that until you learn trail braking (which can be a process) try geting all your braking done in a straight line, earlier than you think and rolling the throttle on smoothly, slow in-fast out. You might also try working for a later apex where you can (in the apropriate corners), its amazing how much earlier you can get on the gas that way.

Cheers!

M
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'87 924S "Tuffy"
Dead Pets Racing
PCA Member

[gegge]

[924RACR]

No, wider rims are not required for the wider rubber - works most excellently on our racecars (which are required to use only 6" wide rims by the rules).

However, if you're shopping for tires etc - I would agree to just do 205's, unless you can tap into a good cheap supply of used 225's.

I do agree with the chassis and driving adjustments though. You've made it worse if you've stuck 250# front springs on, need to compensate with at least the 19 rear bar, if not a bigger Weltmeister.

There's also alignment - what setup are you running? That'll make nearly as much difference if you've got it wrong...
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Vaughan Scott
Webmeister
'79 924 #77 SCCA H Prod racecar
'82 931 Plat. Silver
#25 Hidari Firefly P2 sports prototype

[Grenadiers]

Thanks for all of the advice, I decided to skip the track-only tires due to cost and not enough track-time opportunities! We're here in New Mexico for the winter and the Deming track isn't too far away. Once back in Wisconsin, only rough and twisty farm roads for fun. Paul can attest to those! So, I ordered up a set of four 225/50/16 Kumho XS tires for the D90s from Tirerack. I'll try them out on January 16th, and 22nd in Deming. We're still thinking of Barrett/Jackson on the week of the 17th, if anyone is in the hood.
_________________
'83 944 Track car.
'88 924S Track car.
'89 944 Turbo
2004 Winnebago Vectra monster RV
2012 Jeep Wrangler
2014 Kia Soul
2001 Ford F350 powerstroke