924Board.org

[John Brown]

Peter:

Missed coupld of your questions. Vaughan and I looked at the overbore at great length. We feel that both PCA and SCCA rules arrive at the same place on the 924. Not for any good reason but just serendipity at work. SCCA rules allow .040 over. Largest factory overbore for rebuild (PCA) is plus 1mm (about .040). So the 87.5 is it.

Yes, the cage can be overbuilt. But that would make it too heavy. Both SCCA and NASA speak to a cage that is deemed to be more for stiffening than safety.

A general reminder to all: you need to have either an NASA, SCCA, or PCA competition license to race. PCA you just have to get enought (8?) track days at Driver's Ed and the Chief Instructor recommendation to the Club Race committee and then be observed at the practice. NASA and SCCA you must attend a competition school/observation. On the east coast the next (I hope) NASA is end of February at VIR. If you have not done at least some kind of high speed driving before, or your name is Shuie, you will probably need some track days experience to get past the school. PCA driver's eds are usually by far the cheapest track time available.

Entry fees for 944 Cup are much more reasonable than either PCA or SCCA and you get more track time!

[Zuffen]

as for boost

easy enough to check with a pressure testor and the wastegate is easy to see if the plumbing has been altered
_________________
Bob Dodd - 924turbo@cox.net
931 1982, 944 1982 euro, 924S 1988SE, 93 968 tip 06 Silver Cayenne S, 06 Black Cayenne S

I have Way too many cars, parts for the 931,944 and 951

[944 Cup]

Thanks for your interest in the series in the NW. Earlier attempts to start a Chapter on theWest Coast have stubbled.The success of any Chapter is all about the people -- the volunteers who run the Chapter and the drivers. We would need a minimum of 10 drivers to commit to the series. We would also need a Director for the series and a Chief Steward willing to spend alot of their time on the effort. Of course a sanctioning body such as NASA is a must. Not sure if NASA have a Region in the NW. SCCA and PCA had no interest in the series.

Let me know if sounds like something you would be interested in.


DD
PS. Yes , the heater core and anything else John B mentioned can come out of the car.

[Peter]

Thanks for all the finfo guys, and I will be following the links provided.
I have done over a dozen PCA DE track days, and although they were a lot of fun in my 924, the 944 series sounds like a LOT more fun. So, as soon as the cage gets installed in the 931, I will be taking the 931 to the track to get an SCCA license then sigining up for the 944 cup series.
-Peter

[944 Cup]

No numbers coming forward on the HP gain with the camshaft, so looks like we'll go with the reduced weight option for the 924. And, the best way to settle the debate on whether we can get it down close to 2000 lb and not spend a ton a money, is for John Brown and I to buy that 924 he mentioned to me, with a fresh engine, going for $500. We can use the winter to strip that baby down. Worst that happens is we have the quickest 924 in the series, that's with John driving of course. Whatta ya say John?


DD

[924RACR]

Gee, it sure would be nice if we could get bolt-on fiberglass front fenders as well, too bad they only sell 944 fenders in fiberglass. Bob? Then again, yeah, you could do the DP. How about allowing a 1-piece glass or CF nose? That could really make a dent in the weight... and still bolt-on! Then just tack-on flares to make it look right.

And yes, John and Dave are right - what's the point of sticking to an obsolete classification when your odds are so much better elsewhere?!? I'm getting pretty ready to move on from ITA - don't even think I'm likely to bother with any SCCA events next year.
_________________
Vaughan Scott
Webmeister
'79 924 #77 SCCA H Prod racecar
'82 931 Plat. Silver
#25 Hidari Firefly P2 sports prototype

[944 Cup]

VAUGHN:

Yes, the one piece nose is cool with fenders. What I had in mind when I mentioned going to fiberglass parts, was to go with the GT Racing Carrera GT fenders, and Carrera GT front spoiler & bumper (weighs 6.5lbs), just because they are available. As I recall about $400 for spoiler and bumper. Another cheaper option would be to replace the front and rear bumper with GT Racing FG (saves 27 lbs each). Think there is where the biggest chunk of weight is saved.

DD

[Zuffen]

Vaughn

a wide body 944 kit is already made, since shipping a one piece nose is nearly impossible, we are opting for a three or four piece that you bond together.

If customer wants to pick one up as a one piece we can make it happen.

The hood is in the works, the nose is a 944T copy.

968 wing is ready to ship.

So far these pieces are of higher quality than from other sources. And they can come pre-colored.

I'm testing a new strut brace that fits the 944 and 951, I'm sure it will fit a 924 but I'm going to trial fit it to my 931. This strut brace will be available relatively soon, waiting on Jeff to launch his site.

We as a group here in Tulsa are working collectively on motorsprts parts, many of them on the list I've already posted.

As for other body parts, we can make anything, the cost is in the mold, a large run pays for the mold. For example rear GT flares, yes we can have them made in carbon or fiberglass. But I have to have an order of at least 20 to justify the mold cost or even beat GT racing or AIR cost.

I can't sit on my money or Jeff's waiting to sell 20 pairs.

If we had commitment of a specific order or a series recommending us as a supplier for authorized parts we could absorb the cost of the molds and associated production.

As for lighter material, we will within a short period of time attempt full vacum and ovened carbon pieces, but realize the cost is really prohibitive except for small pieces. Unless it was prepaid special order we won't be doing large body sized carbon pieces unless they are made in the same manner of fiberglass with the carbon fiber used as a subsitute to the glass cloth.

At least for now.

There is more coming I just can't talk about it until the timing is right.
_________________
Bob Dodd - 924turbo@cox.net
931 1982, 944 1982 euro, 924S 1988SE, 93 968 tip 06 Silver Cayenne S, 06 Black Cayenne S

I have Way too many cars, parts for the 931,944 and 951

[924RACR]

Well, I have to agree I always prefer more modular designs for replacability of broken parts! Just an issue with that weight. Come on, does anyone out there really think we can save even 400lbs with fiberglass? How much sheetmetal must be removed?

Could really stimulate the market for the early cars, though... since they're already 200-300 lbs lighter than everything from '78-onward... Would really be interesting to see if those brakes could be made to hold up, if you stuck with the little brakes and rims for weight... not sure I'd like that, though... don't think it'd work with my driving style... would almost be like driving a Vee...
_________________
Vaughan Scott
Webmeister
'79 924 #77 SCCA H Prod racecar
'82 931 Plat. Silver
#25 Hidari Firefly P2 sports prototype

[944 Cup]

OOPPSS!! Did not know we had a body parts supplier among us for the 924. The series has no affiliation with GT Racing, just someone we saw had the parts.

Yes, the 944 Cup would be interested in recommending you (Company?) as a supplier for authorized 924 Cup parts, presuming for the benefit of the 924 drivers, that product is available and competitively priced.

Of course we would also be open to any kind of year end prize the company may want to give to the a 924 driver in the series (if interested, you can email me directly at Cup944@aol.com) . Thanks.

Thoughts from 924 racers?

Vaughn: Yeah, I'm sure your concern of getting these cars that light, including driver, is legit. I did some calculations and it looks like it would cost about $2500 in FG to replace doors, hood, rear bumper, spoiler/frt bumper/fenders, glass. My rough estimate is a savings of about 500 lbs. When u gut the interior, where's that get ya? Are we close?


DD

[wdb]

about these fiberglass parts . wouldnt it be better for the races if they were cheaply made. they dont have to last 20 years. even minor contact will break the fiberglass ( even if its well made ) glass is heavy ,making quality parts suggest making it thinker for durability . might it be possible to use a cheaper material then fiberglass , even as a filler ,cheaper materials could save weight and cost . I'm guessing here, I have no experience with composites , but maybe man made burlap , readily available by the roll at crafts stores and comes various corseness from heavy to relatively fine might be an option as well as the other cheap materials craft stores carry .. it shouldnt cost to much to experiment with some 6 inch pieces ,and make up a few fiberglass and burlap sandwiches . then make the motor sports equivalent, to a tear away jersey

[924RACR]

Ah, didn't realize we were also talking about doors - that's a help too. However, compensate the weight reduction from removal of the interior with the added weight of the cage, you about break even. My car weighed 2500lbs w/ driver with a real basic 6-pt bolt-in cage, virtually no interior (except door cards and dash). No pass seat. The only remaining items to be removed are a small amount of undercoating/body sealer (rear fenders and floorpan) on the outside and sheetmetal and glass.

Sounds like we're largely talking about allowing a Prod-level prepped car, but with IT engine (Prod Limited Prep, anyone?) and suspension. Maybe we should take another look at the SCCA Production Limited-Prep rules?
_________________
Vaughan Scott
Webmeister
'79 924 #77 SCCA H Prod racecar
'82 931 Plat. Silver
#25 Hidari Firefly P2 sports prototype

[944 Cup]

Good point Vaughn. In PCA, we're talkin about a GT-5s car. Basically would allow anything on a 924 tub, and the engine is free along as it is on uses a 924 block. Of course we're talkin DP or GT, which gets too fast.

Not sure about the SCCA Prod/Ltd prep, maybe be a better match.

Let me bring up one more option, before we finalize our attempt to bring the 924 into the 944/931 pack on the track. I prefer this as we retain the concept of one class for all cars and you have more cars to race against. However, to simplfy things for the 924 driver, we would also be open to a class just for the 924 model including just ITA or PCA J class cars. To make this work though we would need a decent group of 924 cars to make it a race, say 5 or more cars/drivers committing to the series. Thoughts?

DD

[924RACR]

Regarding fiberglass bodywork - you actually need to talk to Jeff Hinkle, not Bobby - he's left you messages, I just chatted w/ him. We talked quite a bit about making up suspension packages, etc., for 924's and 931's. He's got some great ideas.

I have to review the Limited Prep rules, will get back to you.

Regarding classification; a 924-only group/class might eventually become desireable, but not yet - there's just not enough of us. I'd rather have a shot at running with the 944's. And I really do think it's possible to run these cars together, to some degree. It's just a matter of figuring out the best package to make it possible, reasonable (to 944 drivers as well as 924 drivers), and affordable. It's a power and weight thing; cost and complexity may be reduced by looking at both sides of the equation rather than just one. Which would be more desireable, $500 worth of engine mods or $2000 worth of fiberglass that can easily get shattered in an off?

I vote for a bit of both; if you are still in doubt, let it lie as is for now, let people build and compete with more 924's, and see how things turn out. No need to rush; again, there are still but a few of us. I am by no means done, and really, let's face it, you've really got to give it a solid effort for a full year before you can even begin to assess where you are in the series.
_________________
Vaughan Scott
Webmeister
'79 924 #77 SCCA H Prod racecar
'82 931 Plat. Silver
#25 Hidari Firefly P2 sports prototype

[944 Cup]

Vaughn & Co.:

Thanks for all you thought on the subject. A mix of weight and power is probably the deal as you suggest. For now, we will move forward with our weights for 2003, giving the 924 drivers the option to start making their cars lighter. We can do some more things mid-season if need be.

DD