924Board.org

[MartiniRick]

Hi All,

I am buying a 1977 924 Martini and Rossi with 33,000 miles for $3,500. Is that a good price for a car in good condition and what do you think it's worth. The seller said that I could cancel the deal if I didn't like it. As you can tell, I'm new to Porsches Check it out and please tell me what you think. Thanks!

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=42607&item=2483344546&sspagename=ADME%3AB%3AEF%3AUS%3A1#ShippingPayment

Oh, it also has a Windblown System turbo conversion Upgrade.

[Neil924]

You say you're new to Porsches, have you read any info about them so far?
Just for informations sake, these odometers roll over at 100,000. So 33,000 could be 133,000. Does the car come with a full service history?
I would have it looked at first before handing any money to anyone.
Can you give us any more info about the car?

[MartiniRick]

Thanks Neil. I've not read a lot, but I have read some. I believe that the 33,000 mi. is accurate and that it comes with a service history. It has been owned by an elderly scientist, who's been keeping it in his garage for the past few years. I put $500 down as a deposit to hold the car, but the seller did say that I could get my deposit back if I (and my mechanic) didn't like the car. I plan to bring my father-in-law, who is a mechanic, with me to check it out mechanically. The engine runs well and the interior is in excellent shape. The seller said that it is dirty and it does need some detailing work on the decal. If all is good, is it worth $3,500 (or more)???

[emoore924]

First off, welcome.

All of the following is IMHO...

The 77 martini is a cosmetic option. I do not believe there are any performance upgrades associated with it. So, other than the side stripe (which is unavailable and can't be gotten if you need to repair it), the console plaque and the wild interior, you're essentially buying a white 1977 924 -- not the most desirable of the litter. However, within the 924 community there might be some small premium for the martini package, but I would consider it to be pretty small -- maybe $300-500, tops.

The windblown turbo was an aftermarket attempt to add more power to the otherwise anemic 924 powerplant. Other than some vague interest as a curiosity, having it on the car might even detract from value because of poor parts availability and the unfamiliarity of mechanics with the setup. I do not know much about them. Perhaps someone else does.

So, the question becomes whether $3,000 might be reasonable for a 77 924 in this condition. The interior looked ok but the engine compartment looked really cruddy to me. I'd be afraid that tells more of a story than either the odo or the interior. It takes a lot of years to accumulate that much crud and more often than not, 924's lead a hard life.

In my opinion, even if one was to believe the miles (it is not unusual for the odo to fail in these cars), $3k is a bit strong for a 77 in anything other than #2 or #1 condition. If you have a #3 driver or worse, I would say it is over priced. Given the turbo and the condition of the engine, I'd guess #4, or 3.5 even if it cleaned up well.

As p-cars go, it is often said that you should always buy the newest and the best condition car you can buy. At $3,500, you should be buying a nice later car, or you're even at the bottom range for a 924S or 944 which (sorry guys) is a much better designed and executed car than the 924.

That auction did catch my eye and I did take a look. I recall my impression being that the BIN price was over market and that if the in-person condition was very good, at $2-2.5k it would be well bought. I would expect everything to be "right" at the price you're talking about. And, I don't know who the "collector" was that asserted this puppy was worth $7.5k, but I'd like to sell them a couple of cars.

I know it is exciting, but take a step back and look very carefully before making this purchase. With a little patience and some research, I think you could do better for that money.

[Neil924]

As for prices, it depends on the market. How many are around, what condition this car is in etc...
I paid $7,500 for mine, although it was over priced, it was worth more than 3 or 4. If you like this car, then ask yourself can you live with paying 500 or 1,000 over list price? I have an idea of what this car is worth, if it has the low miles, service history, the motor is strong, tranny fine, suspensionin good shape, interior great, Martini package, then I would pay the price, after trying to knock it down a few hundred, {500 maybe? It depends on the current owner}. Only you can say what your max price is. I don't like the white cars as much as the red, but the interior looks sharp! So it comes down to you. It's only $3,500. What does your gut say?

[Chrenan]

I agree with everything said so far. Definitely the most interesting pictures are the ones of the engine bay. There is a lot of surface rust in there. Look at the coolant cap, it is unusual to see that much rust on an coolant cap, and also the timing belt cover. Remember, pre-1980, the rust protection was lesser on these cars, so if engine bay items are rusty, what other rust is hidden in the body/chassis? As for the Windblown Turbo, I'd almost ask for a price reduction becuase of that item. Unless you are competent with after-market turbo systems, where are you going to get support/parts for this turbo? Can you easily convert the motor back to stock if the turbo is seized (which it might be if it has been left sitting)? Yes, the interior on the car looks good, but I'd rather have a dirty interior and a clean engine than vice versa. If it was me, I'd offer $1,500, if he turns it down, go back in a few months when he still hasn't sold the car and offer $1,500 again. Patience is a virtue. I think you'd be unlikely to find a board member who thinks that car is worth $3,500.

LOOK AT THE PICTURE WHERE THE INSULATION IS PEELING AWAY FROM THE FIRE WALL, IT LOOKS LIKE THE FIREWALL IS RUSTY. NOT GOOD.
_________________
1987 951 - M193 Version for Japan

[MartiniRick]

So... am I correct in hearing you all that the consensus is deep six, or renegotiate the deal?

[Chrenan]

I say try to renegotiate, you are never going to find a perfect 924, and this may be a good chance to get deal. However, if you are really looking to spend $3,500 in US funds, maybe up it $4,000 and start looking for a 924S, the 924 with the 944 motor.
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1987 951 - M193 Version for Japan

[skemcin]

some things already pointed out, plus a couple more to ponder:


as for the exterior, I see a few other things I am would concerned with, the rigth rear fender has a rust line by the rear tailight - my biggest concern at this point is more on the history of how the vehicle was stored.

The hood is suspicious too - the driver side front corner looks rusted and spotty on and off the front leading edge. Make sure all the body panels are straight and before you buy, ask to use his garden hose to check if the sunroof leaks - the carpet has very nice vacume stripes but what is underneath there.

I paid more than market for my 924 (maybe $750 more), but I know it was worth it since I had every single maintenance record and it was obvious that this car had never been driven in the winter, near on a salty road, and always in a garage. The good ole Rusty Jones sticker is in excellent shape as is all the under coating. My engine purs like a kitten and the only work it needed was interior - which I am gutting anyway to make room for a roll cage and fire system.

As it has already been said, patience is a virtue - the advice to make a low offer and check back in a week is defintely worth following.
_________________
924.org (no time to complete)
9249206346 - 89k – new shifter bushings, belts, running well.
9249206347 - 8k – waiting its resurrection, no power at the fuel pump and fuse #7 blows w/power

[Vince Ponz]

As with all first time buyers the first car they see they go ga ga over it.

It has the 90 HP engine. You will haunt us later on how to make it better. Take the 3500 and look for a very nice 924T, 944, 87-88 924S. Save money and do as we say. We would love to have you aboard but you can make a better decision.

Those are the hard facts.
_________________
"Never let them see you sweat"
77.5 924 modified track car
79 931 Euro stock
88 924S SE
87 911 Targa stock

[Khal]

Here here, Vince (and others). Not at that price, not in the U.S.
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'80 924 Turbo

[emoore924]

Forget the Martini, here's what you need

Ebay item 2484780123

[Neil924]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2484780123

[gohim]

I have to second what others have said regarding the condition of the car.

Frankly, it doesn't look to me like the car has much care or attention of the over twenty seven years.

Look at all the rust under the hood. A working 924 does not rust like that under the hood, even when it is parked outside all the time.

The photos of the body show numerous dings, far more than a car with only 33K miles that is garaged show have.

The turbo system would worry me, since there are no spare parts. Collector Value of of the Martinis is nothing special, and the turbo system lowers the Collector Value.

If you want a "driver", low miles is not worth additional cost at time of purchase, afterall, you will be driving the extra value away.

You should also consider the cost of maintenance. Turbo cars cost more to service and maintain, than normally aspired cars (NA). The timing belt is not critical on a 924. But on a 924T/931/924S/944, if the timing belt breaks, you will be looking at rebuilding the head, because numerous valves will be bent.

For $3500, you should be able to easily find a 87 or 88 924S, or a 944 in good running condition. Owning and mantaining a 924S or 944 will cost you a minimum average of $1500 a year (when considering the mandatory three year or 30K "front of engine service: at $1500-$2500).

The brother of the guy that I bought my 87 924S from (broken engine), has a brother who is trying to sell hos 87 924S (with about 180K miles) for only $1200. If you are willing to buy the special tools necessary to service the car, and are willing to learn, this might be another way for you to go.

[924martinirossi]

You can check out my Martini Rossi here in the models section.

Michael

BTW I paied $800 for mine sight unseen!