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Carrera RSR
Joined: 08 Jan 2010
Posts: 2309
Location: Somerset, UK
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 Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2024 10:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Beartooth wrote: | That's pretty pricey (the turbo version; the NA is reasonable, and I can't think of anything else that'd do the job at that price). Still, for someone wanting full control of timing without having to do a bunch of wiring to run an external ECU, I can't think of any other options. You could buy a Microsquirt and everything you'd need for less though. Then you could either wire in an ignition module to fire the coil and keep the look pretty close to stock, or you could convert to EDIS or coil-on-plug, plus you could run the frequency valve off it as well.
Different budgets and priorities are going to drive different choices, ultimately. Even though it's not cheap, it's great that there's an option like Mittlemotor's distributor. The cheapest thing would be to resort to old-school distributor tuning, although that's a steep learning curve, or you'd have to find a distributor guru (not many of them still around). Just to get more spark, coil and plug wire upgrades would help for relatively cheap. For an all-out effort, I'd lean towards going through the hassle of wiring up a Microsquirt or ignition controller. That'd give you finer control, assuming you went full-on with a TPS, CTS, and IAT. Of course, that begs the question of "why not EFI?" but I wonder, if you've got a good CIS setup, if there's much to gain unless you're aiming for big power numbers. I guess for me, if I'm going to spend big money, I'd like the most sophisticated and capable solution possible, but that's a big investment in time and energy - easier said than done. |
as we already know, the 931 is not a well trodden path as say an Escort/Sierra Cosworth where everybody and their dog as well are race + rally teams spent many many bucks upgrading these engines, turbos, exhausts etc. and its very easy to rock up to a tuner and get a very long menu of upgrades. Only decision is how much to spend.
With the 931 we have limited numbers willing to spend big dollar on these cars, there's many ways to spend a little or lot and still end up with limited bang for buck.
For me I decided from the outset to try to avoid EFi and standalone ECU's and focus on the 'mechanical' advantages first. Too many folks aim for EFi/ECU assuming big power gains from a stock motor / turbo / limited IC solutions. I could now switch to Eli/ECU and unlock another chunk and maybe get over 300bhp.......but at what cost to the wallet. It's been more than emptied to get to 270bhp in CiS..... which I'm stocked about as the goal was to get up to 250.
Many ways to skin the cat and each of us have different drivers to the end goal. Which makes it all the more interesting than rocking up at a Ford Motorsport Specialist and laying down £10k and saying give me a 400bhp Escort/Sierra Cosworth please. At least our 931's are built not bought!
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1980 931 - forged pistons, Piper cam, K27/26 3257 6.10 hybrid turbo, 951 FMIC, custom intake, Mittelmotor dizzy & cam pulley, H&S exhaust, GAZ Gold, Fuch'ed, Quaife
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Carrera RSR
Joined: 08 Jan 2010
Posts: 2309
Location: Somerset, UK
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| Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2024 10:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Kenodog wrote: | The reason I'm thinking of it is simply because the motor it will go on is a bit different than a stock 931.
I forget the actual build spec but it's something like :
88mm flat hypertension flat tops
Knife edged crank
Teflon scraper
NOS hybrid turbo with the bearing housing from a 951 mated to a 6.10 NOS K26 from Germany
Factory Carrera GT intercooler
911 SC aluminum pressure plate
Euro Motor Werks (think that's the name) big valve kit and a custom ported head and springs etc. that our man Dan used to sell
Fast road cam from Elgin
Bunch of other things, can't remember actually since it's been about 7 years since it was built. Sounds horny as heck and she's going to be a ripper. The WUR is rebuilt as is the entire fuel system. It's as good as it can be with the stock electronics but I'm thinking that at least some form of control would be nice to help dial it in as best we can. |
TMIC is better than no thermal management, but that will be your limiting factor on pushing on. With the Mittelmotor dizzy you will be able to tune the ignition based on boost far better than reworking the limited advance/retard curves of a stock distributor. I spoke to Aldon in the UK and was told they could rework the stock distributor but my aspirations were beyond what it could deliver.
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1980 931 - forged pistons, Piper cam, K27/26 3257 6.10 hybrid turbo, 951 FMIC, custom intake, Mittelmotor dizzy & cam pulley, H&S exhaust, GAZ Gold, Fuch'ed, Quaife
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Pascal924
Joined: 24 Dec 2014
Posts: 29
Location: Vlissingen
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| Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2024 8:32 am Post subject: |
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I use 123 ingnition also already for years on my 924 turbo’s.
I think it works perfect, but an stock or Siemens dtic is also good and reliable. |
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Cedric
Joined: 27 Aug 2004
Posts: 2609
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2024 6:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Pascal924 wrote: | I use 123 ingnition also already for years on my 924 turbo’s.
I think it works perfect, but an stock or Siemens dtic is also good and reliable. |
Actually the DITC is in some ways more sophisticated, crank triggering is a better and more stable solution since spark timing isnt afffected by the cam transmission or the cam timing, and it has a boost temp sensor for saving the engine for example with heat soak (which is a thing for TMIC), and it has built in idle control
The challenges are when you start tuning it with lots of boost and intercooler. Because it advances ignition alot with the low boost temperatures for example, possibly to much at higher boost levels. And you cant adjust the timing in any way, it is what it is 
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1980 924 Turbo
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Kenodog
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 2651
Location: Vancouver,B.C.
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| Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2024 3:44 am Post subject: |
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Happy New Year's to all and thanks for the replies.
I am sort of lucky to live in a cool damp climate where the top mounted I/C will work quite well being what it is. Boost will be the normal 10psi I ran on the old 931 and if it's an especially crisp fall / winter / spring day I may go a bit over that but not much.
Leigh
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1979 Euro 931, Olive
1981 931, Sabine
1991 Ford Ranger XLT 4x4, Ricky
1996 Ford E-350 ex-FedEx Van
2014 Mazda CX-5 (Kinderwagon)
2019 KTM 790 Adventure
2024 KLX300
2024 KLX140 |
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Cedric
Joined: 27 Aug 2004
Posts: 2609
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2024 4:54 am Post subject: |
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| Kenodog wrote: | Happy New Year's to all and thanks for the replies.
I am sort of lucky to live in a cool damp climate where the top mounted I/C will work quite well being what it is. Boost will be the normal 10psi I ran on the old 931 and if it's an especially crisp fall / winter / spring day I may go a bit over that but not much.
Leigh |
It will work well, what compressor do you have on that turbo?
The issue is when flooring it after the car have been sitting still, at least if you havent got intake temp ignition retard. I saw a guy detonate a hole in a piston when he floored it out of the pits after standing still for a long time in the pits with the engine on (s1, high boost, tmic). But i dont think your that kind of guy
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1980 924 Turbo
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Kenodog
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 2651
Location: Vancouver,B.C.
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| Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2024 5:03 am Post subject: |
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Hey Cedric,
I honestly forget what the compressor is. I won a NOS k26 6.10 turbo on Ebay years ago. I mated that to the center oil / water cooled housing of a 951 and had it professionally built. I remember thinking I will never need that much boost but ,meh, bigger is better I hear.
I am very good about pre-heating / post run cooling and maintain my vehicles with good oils etc. TBH, I have a new (to me) first gen Ford Ranger that I'm building into a bike hauler and daily driver, plus the CX-5, plus two motorbikes, plus plus way too many more things to drive. The 931's are 'I'm going for a drive on some back roads on a nice cool day' sort of cars for me. Since they don't have A/C these will be cool weather car 99% of the time.
Just waiting for some spare time to organize my crap and get motivated to finish these things, lol.
_________________
1979 Euro 931, Olive
1981 931, Sabine
1991 Ford Ranger XLT 4x4, Ricky
1996 Ford E-350 ex-FedEx Van
2014 Mazda CX-5 (Kinderwagon)
2019 KTM 790 Adventure
2024 KLX300
2024 KLX140 |
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