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kondzi
Joined: 02 Jul 2018
Posts: 494
Location: Poland/EU
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 Posted: Mon Apr 17, 2023 7:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Mike9311 wrote: | | I was surprised really with how the short side looks with how much has been ground out of this port. |
Didn't I tell you it looks so much different from outside? 
Great progress and conclusions.
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Konrad
'89 951 US
'88 Mustang 5.0 LX Convertible (factory specs)
'84 911 Carrera 3.2 RoW (factory specs)
'81 931 RoW (TBD)
'81 Ford Capri 2.8i (factory specs)
'79 Ford Capri 2.9 (heavily modded) |
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Mike9311
Joined: 14 Dec 2004
Posts: 1798
Location: Chicago-ish
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| Posted: Mon Apr 17, 2023 11:30 pm Post subject: |
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| kondzi wrote: | | Mike9311 wrote: | | I was surprised really with how the short side looks with how much has been ground out of this port. |
Didn't I tell you it looks so much different from outside?
Great progress and conclusions. |
You did! Thanks for pushing the molding process. It really helped a lot, thank you!
Today its a simple test with a straight trumpet. No real science behind it. I didn't even make sure it was 7deg's or less following venturi rules but it does go full straight 50-60mm away from the port. Will port match and test
It is printed and ready to be matched up to the head. I am now wondering if we modified the stock intake to have a longer straight section entering the port if that is even possible 'room' wise. My thinking ignores everything on top of the runners. I'm only seeing the TMIC as my target obstruction
Today's test looks like this
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1980 931 since 1989
1981 Ideola 931 Club Sport
1982 931 Entwicklungsfahrzeug
1979 924 NA ohne 650 mit 471
1982 931 Red Resurrection - 951 IC
1982 931 parts car / resurrection?
1980 924 NA (R&D lightweight)
1982 931 wana-be GTR race car |
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Cedric
Joined: 27 Aug 2004
Posts: 2801
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2023 12:28 am Post subject: |
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Interesting, was waiting for this test, or with other intake angles  with so much head work development it deserves a new intake, with some intake pipes tuned for a different rpm maybe:)
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1980 924 Turbo
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Mike9311
Joined: 14 Dec 2004
Posts: 1798
Location: Chicago-ish
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| Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2023 1:45 am Post subject: |
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| Cedric wrote: | | Interesting, was waiting for this test, or with other intake angles with so much head work development it deserves a new intake, with some intake pipes tuned for a different rpm maybe:) |
I promise ongoing testing and development with all those ideas. With how you and Morghen use 3d printing we could even print full Intakes for testing. It really is truly crazy to see what can be developed now.
I also want to drive the CS this summer so I really mean it when I say 'temporary engine'. I am striving to be efficient with everything. Not just how the 924 runs but how I work on them. I have Tyler nearby and his now legendary EFR build up week/weekend thrash to make 92Forty for inspiration
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1980 931 since 1989
1981 Ideola 931 Club Sport
1982 931 Entwicklungsfahrzeug
1979 924 NA ohne 650 mit 471
1982 931 Red Resurrection - 951 IC
1982 931 parts car / resurrection?
1980 924 NA (R&D lightweight)
1982 931 wana-be GTR race car |
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lildude4life
Joined: 27 Apr 2015
Posts: 60
Location: Milwaukee WI
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| Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2023 3:38 am Post subject: |
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| Mike9311 wrote: |
I also want to drive the CS this summer so I really mean it when I say 'temporary engine'. I am striving to be efficient with everything. Not just how the 924 runs but how I work on them. I have Tyler nearby and his now legendary EFR build up week/weekend thrash to make 92Forty for inspiration |
You rang?
When you say the TMIC is the restriction, you mean than as in, you want your final design to work with the TMIC, and/or the TMIC is your flow limiter? Or am I missing something?
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"931 EFR" 81 931 S2 w/ EFR 6258 turbo, EFI, Haltech Elite ECU, 240whp |
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Cedric
Joined: 27 Aug 2004
Posts: 2801
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2023 3:49 am Post subject: |
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I have no doubt you can do a printed manifold, especially for testing purposes. But it takes some thought to make it work and good material of course. We ran printed manifolds on the truck engines sometimes, and that was more boost than your engine can dream of
I hope we'll see it running this year, it might add or remove stuff on the todo list by just driving using it for some time
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Mike9311
Joined: 14 Dec 2004
Posts: 1798
Location: Chicago-ish
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| Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2023 9:38 am Post subject: |
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lildude4life: As in mechanical constraint as far as Intake design changes. I am running the TMIC for sure this year! I chase too many rabbits down holes. Goal is really can we do something with stock location Intake
Cedric that's interesting. Glad to hear there is more of this out there. Lets hope right!
So testing was informative tonight. The trumpet (or velocity stack) followed the No Intake curve really closely until boom, right at .4 lift (0.03" or 0.75mm sooner) it went turbulent which is quite interesting. This tells me the intake is causing turbulence which I kind of suspected based on muffled noise. Its harder to hear the port with the intake test but you could hear it was different.
The trumpet has such nice smooth sound until it went turbulent. Will need to keep porting!!!! The air needs help getting around the bend
The No Intake doesn't go turbulent until .430" lift (10.92mm) and its at 183 cfm before it crashes
Now see the pic below the results. Just by putting the flow ball there it jumps to 197 cfm and is oh so quiet. Got to figure out what will work with an Intake
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1980 931 since 1989
1981 Ideola 931 Club Sport
1982 931 Entwicklungsfahrzeug
1979 924 NA ohne 650 mit 471
1982 931 Red Resurrection - 951 IC
1982 931 parts car / resurrection?
1980 924 NA (R&D lightweight)
1982 931 wana-be GTR race car |
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Mike9311
Joined: 14 Dec 2004
Posts: 1798
Location: Chicago-ish
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| Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2023 12:00 pm Post subject: |
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You guys see what I am thinking? Its still the port as the main problem, not the intake. The intake and the trumpet affect the results in a similar way. Sure the actual intake has more of a complicated effect (starts at lower lift points) but we just got really good information as to what is still the issue
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1980 931 since 1989
1981 Ideola 931 Club Sport
1982 931 Entwicklungsfahrzeug
1979 924 NA ohne 650 mit 471
1982 931 Red Resurrection - 951 IC
1982 931 parts car / resurrection?
1980 924 NA (R&D lightweight)
1982 931 wana-be GTR race car |
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morghen
Joined: 21 Jan 2005
Posts: 9095
Location: Romania
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| Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2023 4:34 pm Post subject: |
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Do it ! 
Amazing work and thread, thanks for sharing with us.
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kondzi
Joined: 02 Jul 2018
Posts: 494
Location: Poland/EU
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| Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2023 6:38 pm Post subject: |
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Hmm 3D printed trumpet with integrated ball, sweet haha
Basically if you think about it, adding a trumpet or a spacer or anything else in-between head and intake is somewhat also kind of external porting job IMHO.
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Konrad
'89 951 US
'88 Mustang 5.0 LX Convertible (factory specs)
'84 911 Carrera 3.2 RoW (factory specs)
'81 931 RoW (TBD)
'81 Ford Capri 2.8i (factory specs)
'79 Ford Capri 2.9 (heavily modded) |
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Mike9311
Joined: 14 Dec 2004
Posts: 1798
Location: Chicago-ish
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| Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2023 11:19 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks!!!!!!
So the flow ball view was with the new printed radius that replaces my clay for consistency. That was for you guys to see how sensitive the port is now. I don't have to do much at all now for flow to re-attach and flow to go up. That ball barely gets near the port opening and flow goes up 18-20cfm. Its also still a bit unstable at the top then with the ball. What I didn't say yesterday was that I saw 199+ which means the port is capable of insane numbers if I could just smoothly blend it how the air wants me to
What I am hoping for now is that additional port work gets the air to stay attached throughout the whole lift range and beyond like maybe .6"+ lift (15.24mm) just so its extra stable in the range we use. I feel like its a lot to ask but I still think it could be better
The printed trumpet view looks like this but my flow ball stick isn't long enough to play around in the port. The white part in the port view is the remaining paint at the head opening from scanning. Its port matched pretty nicely. Also just realized you can see my 'port bias' on the floor from left to right.
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1980 931 since 1989
1981 Ideola 931 Club Sport
1982 931 Entwicklungsfahrzeug
1979 924 NA ohne 650 mit 471
1982 931 Red Resurrection - 951 IC
1982 931 parts car / resurrection?
1980 924 NA (R&D lightweight)
1982 931 wana-be GTR race car |
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fblade
Joined: 06 Dec 2020
Posts: 43
Location: UK
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| Posted: Wed Apr 19, 2023 4:06 am Post subject: |
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Great work Mike, i know you tried veins in the port a while back but going off the latest news have you tried or thought about placing clay flow balls at specific areas along the port/intake like the putty veins but the same size as the flow ball in the image below.
I suppose if you really want to get super advance perhaps 3D print an intake trumpet with a flow ball in it
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Cedric
Joined: 27 Aug 2004
Posts: 2801
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Wed Apr 19, 2023 4:35 am Post subject: |
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I dont remember, did you ever experiment with any filling in the bowl area ? Is there any material left in the roof to raise the port entry angle a slight bit (would need filler on the floor). Just thinking of potential areas to work with to reach the last bit of flow, and don't forget the velocities
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1980 924 Turbo
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Mike9311
Joined: 14 Dec 2004
Posts: 1798
Location: Chicago-ish
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| Posted: Wed Apr 19, 2023 6:33 am Post subject: |
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| Cedric wrote: | | I dont remember, did you ever experiment with any filling in the bowl area ? Is there any material left in the roof to raise the port entry angle a slight bit (would need filler on the floor). Just thinking of potential areas to work with to reach the last bit of flow, and don't forget the velocities |
I started with some clay on the roof. Basically tried building a guide vane like most modern heads. at that stage it didn't do anything (crazy right??) but I suspect it might once it gets closer to the final stages. Like you point out, especially if I need to close the volume a bit to bring velocity back. I also played around all over with clay but it never was to my liking except that baguette thingy until the intake test. I am still concerned with the injector because the flow doesn't like when it comes into the port area. Hoping to machine some injector spacers to have them raised up a bit. Cross that bridge later
The current changes have been velocity related. Its too fast right at the short side radius or at least that's my thinking based on how it goes turbulent and the probe shows the speed much higher across that floor area.
Port is smoother now than back then. This was the pic I posted. I am hoping I don't have to fill anywhere just so I don't have too
_________________
1980 931 since 1989
1981 Ideola 931 Club Sport
1982 931 Entwicklungsfahrzeug
1979 924 NA ohne 650 mit 471
1982 931 Red Resurrection - 951 IC
1982 931 parts car / resurrection?
1980 924 NA (R&D lightweight)
1982 931 wana-be GTR race car |
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Mike9311
Joined: 14 Dec 2004
Posts: 1798
Location: Chicago-ish
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| Posted: Wed Apr 19, 2023 7:03 am Post subject: |
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Forgot about this pic from a while back. When the flow ball got the flow to reattach, the overall velocities elsewhere in the port cross section went up. This is one inch, or 25.4mm, into the port. This is the same ball I just showed recently. I don't have to go deep in anymore. It just needs to be right at the entrance of the port for it to get quiet and flow more
_________________
1980 931 since 1989
1981 Ideola 931 Club Sport
1982 931 Entwicklungsfahrzeug
1979 924 NA ohne 650 mit 471
1982 931 Red Resurrection - 951 IC
1982 931 parts car / resurrection?
1980 924 NA (R&D lightweight)
1982 931 wana-be GTR race car |
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