924Board.org

[F3ARED]

Have refrained from putting this up for a while [and hopefully its in the right spot] as to be honest, there isnt much to show at the moment nor will there be much progress in the next couple of months due to a few other projects that need to get done first. However, given that its losing its storage space soon and the amount of research/information cultivating I need to do, i figured I may as well throw this up now and start asking questions here rather than start a new thread every 5 minutes.

Bit of boring backstory first - I will preface this by saying I am no stranger to building and modifying cars. Ive had a rather large and assorted mix of cars including a modified 6L 6speed Commodore "Thunder" Ute, a few BMWs, an S15 Silvia and some 4WDs but I mainly cut my teeth so to speak on GMs T-Car chassis which was known as the Holden/Isuzu Gemini in Australia and massively popular here. Over the years ive converted some of them to EFI, built EFI turbo Geminis, had a few Isuzu DOHC powered ones [the Group A homologation motor] and pretty much everything under the sun including various twin carb setups [DCOE, IDF] and so on and so forth.

This car in particular was my favourite; I bought it when i was 21 as a completely stock two owner car in the factory blue with 1.6 SOHC and Auto - then it was conveted to 2L DOHC 8V powered with an early Haltech ECU, then the original SOHC motor went back in with EFI and a T3/T4 Turbo on 17psi, then it was resprayed, then it was crashed the first day back after a 3 year rebuild and 2 weeks out from my wedding, then it was fixed etc and so on. I raced it, i met my wife in it, we got married in it, we did our honeymoon in it, and we drove up the whole east coast of Australia. I even used it as a daily driver when I was still in my previous career.



I had owned it for 11 years at the time and if Im honest, i was starting to resent it. It needed time, it needed another rebuild [colour match wasnt 100% after the accident and im incredibly fussy with this sort of thing], I needed to finish building the new motor and basically re-engineer the whole car. Basically, I was spent from working on the same car over and over, fed up with the community and the people involved with them and my heart just wasnt in it any more.

https://www.nick.holdengemini.net/i.php?/upload/2019/02/27/20190227130438-f733e277-la.jpg

And then that happened. If I was having second thoughts about wether I wanted to rebuild it before I got rear ended at 40kmh, then the deal was pretty much sealed after that point - i definitely was not spending months unpicking rear quarter panels, racking it straight etc. which gave me the perfect excuse to walk away* and start over with something else.

The search began - always wanted a Porsche but 911s are well and truly out of reach with even the 996 Tiptronics demanding over 50k in Aus, plus having grown up driving Front engined/Rear drive chassis, the thought of having to undo years of driving habits to suit the 911 were a bit daunting. What I wanted was something with an aftermarket that meant parts could be bought new off the shelf, that had performance parts available and could be turned into something that handled and stopped. It was honestly looking like a C4 Corvette was my best option...until i somehow ended up buying a 924.

Sitting on the couch trawling Facebook marketplace during Covid lockdown and this popped up and grabbed my attention.







An early (77) 4speed car, non runner, with rust around the sunroof and that looked like it had been a long, long time since it last saw tarmac. Showed the Mrs who, instead of being the voice of reason, offloaded the kids to my parents and convinced me to go take a look. Taking a look turned into making an offer and for the paltry sum of $2500** bringing home what may possibly be Australias worst 924.











The good:

It was cheap. Its all there albeit in pieces, and despite the spectacularly sh*t attempt at bodywork from one of the previous owners, its actually not that bad body-wise.

The bad:

The sunroof is rusty, and so is the battery tray.











Its currently tucked away at my father inlaws place however will need to make its way over here soonish so hopefully ill be able to start tear down while I work concurrently on other things. Will need to strip it to a bare shell, get it blasted and go from there. As far as build plans go, the ethos behind it is to essentially build a 996/997 GT3 Touring out of a 924 chassis - I want something that is built for going/turning/stopping and to put the emphasis on that, but not so much so that it is complete stripped out and makes me dread driving it anywhere that isnt a race track.

Bodywise, the initial plans were Carrera GTS replica however the whole narrow-body look has slowly grown on me to the point where I dont mind the 931 look [bonnet and grille] while keeping the Zender rear wing the car already has, possibly with a Zender front spoiler. The sticking point at the moment is freight; 5K in freight for a 3K set of fibreglass panels is a bit of a rude shock.

Suspension will be coil over front, rear undecided as yet. Leaning towards the LR adjustable bars at the moment.

Gearbox, I got my hands on an 016 box which will recieve the strengthening plate and a Quaife LSD Centre.

Brakes, ive managed to acquire a set of 5stud early 944 hubs so as far as I am aware, the 911 rotors/Boxster calipers for the front and 944 Rear/Boxster rear is the way to go.

Engine-wise is where things get a little bit difficult. 300 to 350hp is the aim with a fat torque curve and responsive to throttle inputs, which I dont think the old EA831 will be suitable for.

We dont have access to abundant 931 engines in Aus so the head of the XJ engine would need to be heavily modified. I have concerns about parts availability as I havent yet found a set of main bearings or an oil pump for sale, and some concerns about reliability and wether or not the engine is capable of achieving what Id like. Theres also the issue of passing emissions; in Australia, id need to engineer it to NCOP / VSB14 standards which would require the car to pass an IM240 emissions test. Not impossible, but not easy either. On the plus side, I already have a spare new/unused ball-bearing TD05, a 40mm external wastegate, Haltech sprint etc. Open to advice as to how achievable this would actually be or any other weak points that would need to be adressed. Have looked at Morghens [very well engineered] SC kit but dont think itll flow enough air to make the sort of power I want.

The other options ive looked at [purists look away] are 1UZFE, Duratech, VR6 or 1.8T 20V. LS is sadly not an option as its outside of the allowed capacity to weight formula that is allowed under VSB14 and would probably nuke the 016.

The 1UZFE is my preferred choice as these are a beautiful, revvy, torquey engine and would be epic in a 9x4 chassis however, save for the Woodsport 944 there arent many finished examples so it makes it hard to see what issues id come across. Modifying the strut tower and chassis rail as per the Woodsport conversion are a definite no-no under NCOP/VSB14; jury is out over if the firewall mods required to clear the LH cylinder bank are ok.

Duratech, on paper, is a slightly left-field but good choice. Light, compact, can make 250hp NA which would fit the GT3 ethos well and mimic the performance of a 968 engine, but I would be well and truly playing pioneer on this one and I honestly dont think I want to go down the rabbit hole of that.

1.8T 20V has been done enough that I can follow and or see what other issues people have encountered along the way. Good little engines, but I dont like the amount of parts that need modifying [in all honesty, probably a concern with all the aforementioned engines], dont like the tunnel needing mods to clear the starter and the likelihood of finding a good donor engine that doesnt need rebuilding is pretty slim.

The VR6 is the other one i really want and think would fit the ethos really, really well. 24V versions are relatively easy to come by in Aus however refer to playing pioneer; Ive only seen one completed 12V swap and I was not impressed with how it was achieved. Similarly, ive seen the VR6 described as compact, huge, heavy, not that heavy etc depending on where you search. Dont really feel like purchasing an engine and wasting time and money only to come to the conclusion that it just really does not fit in here.

944/968 engines are out. Would require too many changes [torque tube, crossmember, gearbox for the 968 etc], arent cheap in Aus [theres a 968 engine for sale at the moment...for 11k!] and have other drawbacks.


Some food for thought; open to any advice and or suggestions on this one.


Cheers

Nick


*somehow my wife has convinced me to reshell the gold car into another shell that ive had sitting at my parents place since i was 17

**keep in mind Australian prices.
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1977 Porsche 924
1987 Range Rover Classic 3.5L V8

[peterld]

OOOh! Think you should've bought the C4

Seriously though, a very big project. A new non-sunroof roof is in your cards.
Perhaps a f/g one bonded on. And lots of metal work on the battery tray.

The choice of engine will most importantly have to consider what fits under the bonnet. The Toofah engine bay is fairly spacious, but height is the main determinant.

Share your fondness for the little Gem. Back in the day raced a TX coupe and then later a TE sedan.

Good luck with the project, and keep us posted.
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80/81 932/8 ROW

[morghen]

If you keep and rebuild the original engine, i can offer you a supercharger bolt on kit. By the time you'll be ready with the body of the car and its time to address the engine my kit will have a high power version available which may be sufficient for your power craves.
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https://www.the924.com

[Cedric]

That's a rough one, wow.. I hope you like bodywork


I think 300-350 is a good number for the engine, shouldn't be so complicated to achieve. It will be interesting to see how far "safe" will push his ratrod, which is fairly std. Search "project black" on here for a fun read aswell. The engine would be the least of my worries with that car
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1980 924 Turbo
www.instagram.com/garagecedric/

[F3ARED]

Trust me, theres days where I think i still should have gone the C4 route, would definitely have made the engine choice a lot easier! But that kind of defeats the purpose; none of this is about easy - its about building to an ideal. Plus i didnt see the sense in buying a good car and ripping it apart because I honestly cant be trusted and thats what would have happened anyway To give you an idea of how much of a sucker for punishment I am, one of the other options was a Triumph TR7 to do a "TR8" build out of using a Rover 4.6 stroker. The RV8 is a complete dead horse and a monumental cost and effort to get power out of but the concept of lightweight RWD chassis and high revving torquey V8 really appeals hence my preference to go v8 in the 9x4 chassis.

Im under no illusions about the size of the task ahead. Not afraid of bodywork as ive been down this time consuming a tedious road many a time before. Just finished a TF Rodeo [Isuzu P'up to the US members] that Im giving to my Dad that was in a really, really bad way so Im no stranger to heat, beat and repeat.





In saying that though, the sunroof rust scares me a little bit. Id like to save the sunroof as I think its one of the nicest features of these cars. I wont know what im up against until its blasted but my feeling at the moment is there is too much metal gone above the seal lip area to really be able to save it [unless i found a complete skin that didnt have rust]. A fibreglass replacement was Plan B so not all is lost.

morghen, i assume you are trying a larger supercharger on the next kit?

Cedric - ill have a read of that thread now, thanks. Starting with a bad example was preferable given that the 85% of the car was destined to be binned or re-done, so theres really no point in paying for a good example only to tear into it.

Speaking of reading, have done some more reading of NCOP / VSB14 and may have potentially found a grey area to play in. Will need to clarify with an engineer but the more thorough and accurate a proposal can be put to the engineer, the more chance of pre-approval. The rules that need to be followed under VSB14 Section LA is as below:



Going off the above table, and using the tare weight of 1080kg for a 1977 924 4speed, the maximum allowed capacity is 4320cc [1080 x 4]. However, further reading of the regulations found this bit hidden away:

[peterld]

I do see an LS in your future......what about the smaller series from the US?
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80/81 932/8 ROW

[morghen]

I dont plan on using a larger supercharger, i plan on trying more boost soon
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https://www.the924.com

[F3ARED]

Small update; 924 is patiently waiting in the queue for its turn however that doesnt stop me from buying parts. A little while ago I spotted a whole bunch of fibreglass bits for a 924 - semi complete GT/GTS kit, GTR bumpers, some moulds etc. Unfortunately someone beat me to it.

Few weeks later, the GT/GTS bits appeared on ebay in a different state. This time I managed to get it - i presume the seller bought it for the GTR parts and re-advertised the GT/GTS bits. Worked out well for him, and to be honest, im not going to complain either as I had no interest in the GTR kit.









So i now have front gaurds, a GTS front bar, rear bumpers, the rear gaurds and the bonnet scoop at a fraction of what the freight and tax portion of importing from the US or UK would have cost me. Problem is I still need some bits [albeit smaller/less freight intensive/able to skirt tax issues]. Need to get the rear wing, the turbo nose cone, headlights, mirrors and the rear GTS "badge panel" that covers the hole for the fuel filler locations where the race cars got their dry-break filler added.

In terms of the nose cone, the original one on my car is fairly damaged and full of bog so i think taking a mould from this to make a fibreglass one is at this point not an option. Contemplating seeing if i can get my hands on a better second-hand one [refer to scarcity/everyone charging 911 prices because it has a Porsche badge] and cutting the turbo grilles into that.

As for the rear spoiler, looking at photos it appears to be the same as the OEM 944 spoiler - is anyone able to confirm?

Still doing some homework on engines. The Honda J series V6s appear to be a decent option however still have concerns over height and the amount of work to adapt anything. Im not willing to compromise on the cars looks hence refuse to cut the bonnet.

N-

N-
_________________
1977 Porsche 924
1987 Range Rover Classic 3.5L V8

[F3ARED]

Almost a quarter of a year later and we still have zero real progress, but at least we now have a bit of direction. Car still looks virtually the same minus some parts that have now been removed. Im at an impasse at the moment - cant really strip the car down until I finish some other cars and sell a few others; just simply dont have the space.



Engine choice has now been made. The prices of LS1s in Australia are ridiculous despite the huge amount sold here - im talking 3.5k for an engine that needs rebuilding. Yikes. Then theres the obvious difficulties with engineering and the gearbox not being up to the task. Measured/tested/considered a whole stack of different engines to find something suitable. The VR5 [sorry, V5] was an option as its the only way to get a 5 cyl in Australia [ignoring the RS5 engines which are 20k]. Dimension wise it looks like it may fit as its very similar to a 1.8T in size. In the end, not wanting to play pioneer was one of the reasons why i abandoned that idea. The other was walking into a local pick-and-pull wrecking yard and seeing this.



99/00 B5 Audi 1.8T Quattro 6speed. Someone had already disassembled the front and removed the transmission so it literally took me 30mins to remove the engine. $180 scored me a complete AJL Big-port inc all accessories and wiring loom. Unfortunately no ECU which ill need to pass emissions/engineering before switching to an aftermarket setup.



Engine looks tidy internally but thats all academic given that ill be pulling it down and rebuilding it with a set of rods and ARP studs. Aim power-wise is 400hp at the engine which it should do quite easily. I was originally looking at cutting up a Golf trans to mate the engine with the torque tube before i discovered LOBB [www.lobb.ltd for those interested]. Hes designed and built a brilliant bellhousing to adapt a 1.8t 20v to the Porsche torque tube including having the correct engine angle and having the starter in the same spot as a 931. Also designed to use all VW/Audi components including the bigger RS4 sized clutch. It wasnt cheap but its worth it for the convenience factor alone and thus far his service and communication has been amazing. Should have that arriving from the UK this week sometime.



Speaking of the UK, also spotted another supplier making billet door handles, window handles and MK1 Golf gearknobs. Given that the aim/whole ethos of the build is something belong the lines of a GT3 Touring with Singer-ish touches, I couldnt help myself. Ended up being a nightmare getting them. 4 weeks turned to 4 months as they somehow got sent to the US instead of the UK. They finally arrived - pretty happy with the product but the saga soured it a bit.





Cant wait to actually start working on this thing!

N-
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1977 Porsche 924
1987 Range Rover Classic 3.5L V8

[jacobroufa]

Nice on those billet bits. I was planning on getting a set of window cranks for my 924 eventually which I have also in my T3, from GoWesty for anyone in the states: https://gowesty.com/products/heavy-duty-high-offset-window-crank

What is that UK supplier? Having a nice metal door handle would be great as compared to the VW plastics which after 40+ years are all scratched and marred up...
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1980 Porsche 931
1981 Porsche 924 Weissach

[F3ARED]

The billet pieces were made by Davies Motorsport Engineering in the UK. You can find him on Facebook. Handles are really nicely constructed and feel solid.

For anyone else interested, LOBB have also released a kit to adapt an 01X 6speed box to the 924/944 chassis - youll need to search LOBB LTD on facebook for that as well. Not cheap, but man his stuff is well thought out and built.

N-
_________________
1977 Porsche 924
1987 Range Rover Classic 3.5L V8

[Cedric]

[F3ARED]

Bit of an [unpopular] update on this one. A little while back i posted about the accident damage and or subsequent repairs I uncovered and my concerns for how that particular repair had been completed [see here https://www.924board.org/viewtopic.php?t=45908 ]. After discussing it further with a friend and a panel shop, the biggest concern we had was that racking the car square would tear the seam weld along the firewall, and that a seam weld on one side and not the other would do all sorts of strange things to the way the body behaves under load. This may seem like being a bit pedantic but they are quite strict in Australia as to how repairs are done, particularly with regard to monocoque chassis cars. With that in mind, i made the decision to pull the plug on this one and search for a new shell.

Ended up buying a much more expensive but better starting point early 944 with a dead motor/auto to continue with the 20V conversion. Covering it in Rennlist for anyone interested [heres the link https://rennlist.com/forums/924-931-944-951-968-forum/1349614-aussie-944-rebuild-1-8t-20v-conversion.html mods, delete if not allowed]



The 924 will now be stripped for all and anything useable for the 944. If anyone still reading this can point out which of the following parts I cant use on the 944, please let me know. Im thinking of salvaging the following:

-Strut assembling, to use for converting into coil overs
-Rear torsion bar housing/rear suspension [early 924 is same as 944 correct?]
-Heater/blower motor
-Wiper motor
-Headlight motor
-Pedal box to convert 944 to manual [Am aware will need modification to convert to hydraulic]
-Gearshift rods/linkage/lever

Anything else worth taking before i send the old girl to the car park in the sky? It has what I believe is some form of aftermarket front swaybar arrangement where the bar mounts under the chassis rails and connects to the control arms via a normal link [rather than the through-bracket on the 944]. Looks sort of like the weltmaster arrangement - anyone seen something like this before?

N-
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1977 Porsche 924
1987 Range Rover Classic 3.5L V8

[Beartooth]

That's too bad, but understandable. It would unquestionably have been a big project - one undertaken out of passion and not economics (based on US prices anyway) - and the question of getting the frame straight adding uncertainty to the already-significant challenge has to make the decision easier. Right now I have enough projects that it'd have to be a raging bargain only needing a little work not to pass up (I've got my eye on just such a 380SE), but I've had a hard time talking myself out of much worse cars. Hopefully the for-for you've got ends up being the ticket; good luck with it!
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1980 931 diamond in the rough

[!tom]

Pretty sure the HVAC system isn't directly transplantable between the 924 and 944 platforms.
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78 924 NA
5-lug