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bureau13
Joined: 07 Sep 2017 Posts: 480 Location: South Florida
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Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2020 3:44 am Post subject: |
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So I managed to get the wastegate out, I changed the spring on the Tial to something in the stock range and now I'm putting it back in. Unfortunately, I've hit a snag: The pipe that goes from the discharge side of the wastegate and plumbs back into the exhaust doesn't fit. You can see what I mean from the photos I've linked. The flange mates up fine, but that circular ring/pipe edge/I don't know what you call it that needs to slip inside the wastegate flange opening doesn't fit. Interestingly enough, it does fit into the opening in the valve seat for the input side of the wastegate, but that's not particularly helpful.
Is this normal? The F46 is supposed to be a drop-in replacement, so either it's not, really, or something is off with either the wastegate or the pipe.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/uEYXSs2ksQ6cACh77 _________________ -----------------------------------------
1982 931
1986.5 Silver 928S
2007 Hummer H3 (Daily Driver)
Past lives (I miss them all):
2004 RX-8 (Wrecked)
1993 RX-7 (Sold)
1987 RX-7 Turbo II (Sold)
1985 RX-7 GSL (Stolen) |
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bureau13
Joined: 07 Sep 2017 Posts: 480 Location: South Florida
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Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2020 6:17 am Post subject: |
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Of course this pipe fits perfectly into the stock wastegate, so I took a look at that (see third picture that I just added to the above link) and it appears that the opening has been machined such that it's wider at the surface so that bit of pipe can fit in there. It's not totally clear in the photo but that is what it looks and feels like. So do you have to machine the opening to the input side of the wastegate? Not sure that's a great idea, and I've never heard of anyone doing that.
Another possible (temporary?) solution is get a dump pipe that just vents to atmosphere, but then the wastegate is only held in place by the j-pipe (no bracket to attach to the body like stock, of course it's a good bit shorter and lighter) which doesn't seem like a great idea either. Plus, I've heard that sounds godawful... _________________ -----------------------------------------
1982 931
1986.5 Silver 928S
2007 Hummer H3 (Daily Driver)
Past lives (I miss them all):
2004 RX-8 (Wrecked)
1993 RX-7 (Sold)
1987 RX-7 Turbo II (Sold)
1985 RX-7 GSL (Stolen) |
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chuck21401
Joined: 20 Feb 2005 Posts: 526 Location: Annapolis, MD
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Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2020 9:20 am Post subject: |
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bureau13 wrote: | So I managed to get the wastegate out, I changed the spring on the Tial to something in the stock range and now I'm putting it back in. Unfortunately, I've hit a snag: The pipe that goes from the discharge side of the wastegate and plumbs back into the exhaust doesn't fit. You can see what I mean from the photos I've linked. The flange mates up fine, but that circular ring/pipe edge/I don't know what you call it that needs to slip inside the wastegate flange opening doesn't fit. Interestingly enough, it does fit into the opening in the valve seat for the input side of the wastegate, but that's not particularly helpful.
Is this normal? The F46 is supposed to be a drop-in replacement, so either it's not, really, or something is off with either the wastegate or the pipe.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/uEYXSs2ksQ6cACh77 |
So if you add the gasket (32) in there...no help?
This is the best pic I could find of my WG looking from the side.
_________________ 1981 Porsche 931 w/S1 engine & g31 transmission. Water-cooled intercooler |
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chuck21401
Joined: 20 Feb 2005 Posts: 526 Location: Annapolis, MD
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Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2020 9:35 am Post subject: |
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Found this pic.
_________________ 1981 Porsche 931 w/S1 engine & g31 transmission. Water-cooled intercooler |
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bureau13
Joined: 07 Sep 2017 Posts: 480 Location: South Florida
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Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2020 2:40 pm Post subject: |
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The gasket is very thin, so no help in this case. I removed it for the photos just to avoid obscuring what I was trying to show.
Those pics of your wastegate show what I was talking about in terms of the "machining" or whatever of that opening. I suppose I could take it somewhere and have that done to the Tial, but I'm hesitant to do so. Why is this considered a drop-in for the 930 wastegate? Does the 930 not have the same issue?
Unfortunately, finding someone who is using a Tial on a 931 has been almost impossible. I guess I understand the argument that it's no performance benefit and is much more expensive that repairing the stock one, but in my case I got the Tial for about the same price or less than a rebuild kit. Plus, it's lighter _________________ -----------------------------------------
1982 931
1986.5 Silver 928S
2007 Hummer H3 (Daily Driver)
Past lives (I miss them all):
2004 RX-8 (Wrecked)
1993 RX-7 (Sold)
1987 RX-7 Turbo II (Sold)
1985 RX-7 GSL (Stolen) |
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Mike9311
Joined: 14 Dec 2004 Posts: 1678 Location: Chicago-ish
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Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2020 10:58 pm Post subject: |
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Are you able to measure the diameter difference? If so, is it a lot or just a tad off? _________________ 1980 931 since 1989
1981 Ideola 931 Club Sport
1982 931 Entwicklungsfahrzeug
1979 924 NA ohne 650 mit 471
1982 931 Red Resurrection - 951 IC
1982 931 parts car / resurrection?
1980 924 NA (R&D lightweight)
1982 931 wana-be GTR race car |
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chuck21401
Joined: 20 Feb 2005 Posts: 526 Location: Annapolis, MD
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Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2020 1:41 am Post subject: |
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Not to complicate matters, but when I search for images of the Tial F46, some seem to have the ridge.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/381933792273 _________________ 1981 Porsche 931 w/S1 engine & g31 transmission. Water-cooled intercooler |
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bureau13
Joined: 07 Sep 2017 Posts: 480 Location: South Florida
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Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2020 3:14 am Post subject: |
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Re: Measurements. It seems close. I'm still looking for my caliper to measure it properly, I seem to have not put it away last time
That picture is interesting...that definitely looks like it has the recessed area machined in. I wonder what the difference is?
There was a version of this wastegate that was the F46P, but supposedly the only difference was some of the cooling fins were ground down so the body was thinner and wouldn't rub in certain 930 applications. It does make you wonder if there were other changes, however. I can't tell from that picture if that's an F46P or a standard F46 like mine, however. _________________ -----------------------------------------
1982 931
1986.5 Silver 928S
2007 Hummer H3 (Daily Driver)
Past lives (I miss them all):
2004 RX-8 (Wrecked)
1993 RX-7 (Sold)
1987 RX-7 Turbo II (Sold)
1985 RX-7 GSL (Stolen) |
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Fasteddie313
Joined: 29 Sep 2013 Posts: 2596 Location: MI
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Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2020 5:05 am Post subject: |
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I'd prolly just break out the angle grinder and grind the protruding pipe off of the dump pipe until it is then just a flat flange..
Have you considered that?
That's the low/no pressure side of the exhaust, no real pressure to leak, and wouldn't much matter anyway..
Use some red permatex on both sides of the gasket if you really wanna be sure.. _________________ 80 Turbo - Slightly Modified |
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bureau13
Joined: 07 Sep 2017 Posts: 480 Location: South Florida
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Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2020 2:22 pm Post subject: |
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That's basically what the Tial tech support guy said when I emailed him, so that is the current plan. _________________ -----------------------------------------
1982 931
1986.5 Silver 928S
2007 Hummer H3 (Daily Driver)
Past lives (I miss them all):
2004 RX-8 (Wrecked)
1993 RX-7 (Sold)
1987 RX-7 Turbo II (Sold)
1985 RX-7 GSL (Stolen) |
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Carrera RSR
Joined: 08 Jan 2010 Posts: 2309 Location: Somerset, UK
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Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2020 8:51 pm Post subject: |
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Did you buy the Tial from an authorised seller. There are many fakes out there. Not saying yours is, but it’s a known problem. Could be why you see some with fire ring recess and some without? Just a thought _________________ 1980 931 - forged pistons, Piper cam, K27/26 3257 6.10 hybrid turbo, 951 FMIC, custom intake, Mittelmotor dizzy & cam pulley, H&S exhaust, GAZ Gold, Fuch'ed, Quaife
Now www.924board.org/viewtopic.php?t=34690
Then www.924board.org/viewtopic.php?t=31252 |
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chuck21401
Joined: 20 Feb 2005 Posts: 526 Location: Annapolis, MD
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Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2020 10:01 pm Post subject: |
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re: idea to add mount/support (Tial doesn't have mounting bracket on top).
Check out the bracket in this thread on MOTANUL's car:
http://www.924board.org/viewtopic.php?t=43986&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=90
See this service bulletin; looks like more support was added as part of mods to the turbo and exhaust. I worry that cutting off that pipe & not having a mount at the top of the WG loses support. Maybe something like this would help, assuming you can find the kit or fabricate something similar. Part number is 00 043 023 00; appears to be made out of unobtainium.
_________________ 1981 Porsche 931 w/S1 engine & g31 transmission. Water-cooled intercooler |
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bureau13
Joined: 07 Sep 2017 Posts: 480 Location: South Florida
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Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2020 10:52 am Post subject: |
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Re: Tial vendor
I actually got mine used, so who knows where it originally came from? I'm not sure how to tell the difference.
Re: bracket
I'm not sure if what (if anything) I will do about that, but...that just looks odd. Hmmm... _________________ -----------------------------------------
1982 931
1986.5 Silver 928S
2007 Hummer H3 (Daily Driver)
Past lives (I miss them all):
2004 RX-8 (Wrecked)
1993 RX-7 (Sold)
1987 RX-7 Turbo II (Sold)
1985 RX-7 GSL (Stolen) |
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bureau13
Joined: 07 Sep 2017 Posts: 480 Location: South Florida
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Posted: Wed May 13, 2020 9:00 am Post subject: |
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So I gave my bypass pipe to a friend who has the tools to do this sort of thing, and he ground off that ring/lip/whatever so that it was flush with the mounting flange. FYI it appears to be a pressed-in piece, which you can see now. Anyway, I got it all bolted in there, I have no bracket support right now but it's not nearly as heavy as the stock wastegate, and seems in there solidly. I am getting some possible rattling sound under acceleration, not sure if that's where it comes from or not, but I'll keep an eye on it.
I do now have rock solid boost at stock (domestic) boost levels, which is both great (because it's safe) and sucks (because it's slow). But it's better off the jump because it's not bogged down wasting air out the old diaphragm now at least, and once I get things sorted I will raise the boost a bit. _________________ -----------------------------------------
1982 931
1986.5 Silver 928S
2007 Hummer H3 (Daily Driver)
Past lives (I miss them all):
2004 RX-8 (Wrecked)
1993 RX-7 (Sold)
1987 RX-7 Turbo II (Sold)
1985 RX-7 GSL (Stolen) |
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chuck21401
Joined: 20 Feb 2005 Posts: 526 Location: Annapolis, MD
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Posted: Sat May 16, 2020 4:16 am Post subject: |
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Back on road!
How about running euro boost level by using a manual boost controller. _________________ 1981 Porsche 931 w/S1 engine & g31 transmission. Water-cooled intercooler |
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