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Intercoolers

 
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ideola  



Joined: 01 Oct 2004
Posts: 15505
Location: Woodstock IL

PostPosted: Wed Dec 18, 2019 6:42 am    Post subject: Intercoolers Reply with quote

I will be ordering 3 intercoolers in the next couple of weeks. I've gotten word through my supplier that there have been several inquiries recently.

As I have NOT sold the IP, and this supplier has honored their commitment to me, I am willing and able to process orders for the intercoolers.

Both versions (air-to-air and liquid-to-air) are $937. This does not include any of the additional bits required to install.

I will provide a complete list of parts required to complete the installation, but I will not be coordinating the purchase or delivery of those parts (silicone couplers, t-bolts, water circulation kit, etc.)

The rear support brackets are NLA, but I will inquire with my supplier for those to see if I can get another small run completed.

If you want to purchase one DO NOT SEND ME A PM. Send me an e-mail: dan DOT beckett AT ideola DOT com

Thanks, friends.
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chuck21401  



Joined: 20 Feb 2005
Posts: 244
Location: Annapolis, MD

PostPosted: Wed Dec 18, 2019 1:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Intercoolers Reply with quote

ideola wrote:
If you want to purchase one...


Hey Dan, sent you an email.

Chuck
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Carrera RSR  



Joined: 08 Jan 2010
Posts: 1983
Location: Somerset, UK

PostPosted: Wed Dec 18, 2019 6:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm curious to know if anyone reported back the performance gains post installing of both air or water IC's Dan? Which is best bang for buck?
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Cédric  



Joined: 27 Aug 2004
Posts: 1985
Location: Sweden

PostPosted: Wed Dec 18, 2019 8:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Carrera RSR wrote:
I'm curious to know if anyone reported back the performance gains post installing of both air or water IC's Dan? Which is best bang for buck?


For area/water IC its highly dependent on the rest of the system like radiator. The IC itself is just a part of the system and wont be better then the water getting into it. Since it has quite a decent size on the core it should be possible to lower the temps quite significantly if you have a good front radiator. The power gains should then be as any other IC install..
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Carrera RSR  



Joined: 08 Jan 2010
Posts: 1983
Location: Somerset, UK

PostPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2019 3:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cédric wrote:
The power gains should then be as any other IC install..


I'm still curious as to what that is on other turbo's..... 10, 20, 40bhp?

I get asked quite a bit about IC installs. I don't have any clear results to quote. My car on stock boost and a really nice S2 went on a dyno same day. Stock S2 gave 150bhp adjusted for transmission loss. My car gave 175bhp..... So on that day, on that dyno my IC was worth 25bhp over stock. Stock NA's were giving 95 to 105bhp on the same dyno same day for added comparison. A modded NA expecting 145bhp got 125bhp.

PS - RoW / UK cars. I think the dyno was being tough that day under quoting by 10-20bhp per car. But as a straight like for like on the cars on that dyno on that day the gaps in performance with each other appear fair.
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1980 931 - forged pistons, Piper cam, K27/26 3257 6.10 hybrid turbo, 951 FMIC, custom intake, Mittelmotor dizzy & cam pulley, H&S exhaust, GAZ Gold, Fuch'ed, Quaife
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Last edited by Carrera RSR on Thu Dec 19, 2019 5:22 am; edited 1 time in total
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Cédric  



Joined: 27 Aug 2004
Posts: 1985
Location: Sweden

PostPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2019 5:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rolling road dynos are more of a tuning tool than measuring absolute numbers. I wouldnt focus so much on those.

i had about 188 something hp calculated in the engine (hub dyno with calibrated load cells etc, so probably pretty accurate) before the IC. I dont have access to all my simulation data, but i think it was something in the region of 10-15hp on top of that from only the intercooler, which i think is pretty realistic(if it was an s1, since i didnt readjust the timing in the simulation model). Theres a massive difference in how the S1 and the S2 will handle an intercooler, since the S2 has timing based on boost temperature it will advance it quite significantly with the colder air charge temps, and probably give a significant boost in power. My car felt much stronger at stock boost after the IC, definitely more than 10hp, but that is with the quite large timing change included. Acceleration logs seems to indicate that aswell.

Because of the head gasket i never went back to the dyno as planned, maybe next year if i can put it back together again. Then i will have some more numbers to verify the simulation model. But without boost or adding timing its kinda not worth the effort to add the IC, since its "free" power you miss out on.
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ideola  



Joined: 01 Oct 2004
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2019 11:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

lildude4life has my IC and is running ~11 PSI, but with full EFI conversion, custom Garret turbocharger and exhaust mani. He was getting 180 BHP at the wheels, with plenty of headroom left in the boost and IAT department.
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Carrera RSR  



Joined: 08 Jan 2010
Posts: 1983
Location: Somerset, UK

PostPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2019 6:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ideola wrote:
lildude4life has my IC and is running ~11 PSI, but with full EFI conversion, custom Garret turbocharger and exhaust mani. He was getting 180 BHP at the wheels, with plenty of headroom left in the boost and IAT department.


That’s a very nice number.

Which then begs the next curiosity. What is EFI worth over CIS on an IC’d turbo?
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ideola  



Joined: 01 Oct 2004
Posts: 15505
Location: Woodstock IL

PostPosted: Fri Dec 20, 2019 2:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Carrera RSR wrote:
That’s a very nice number.

Which then begs the next curiosity. What is EFI worth over CIS on an IC’d turbo?


As you well know, these are interrelated. The challenge I've personally had is managing fuel control with the CIS. Increasing the boost causes crazy rich fueling on a stock CIS setup. Spark curve is essentially fixed to whatever the recurve is on the ignition distributor you're using, including the DITC, which has a very rudimentary "spark table".

Better fuel AND better spark management offered by a programmable engine management will in turn allow more boost.

My intercoolers will flow up to 600 CFM, which is good for a theoretical limit of 400-450 BHP (according to Corky Bell). We know the lower end on these cars is good for 400ish BHP given what the GTRs were able to accomplish. Those cars were using variable boost with an in cockpit boost controller for short runs of high boost presumably during passing maneuvers, with manually dialed-back boost setting during long straights, etc.

I estimate that the Club Sport is ~225-250 BHP, just based on side by side comparison to the CGT, which I know was at 210BHP. I have been reluctant to push behond the stock Euro-spec 10 PSI on that car until I can confirm what I suspect, that overfueling at high boost is inducing detonation.

Given lildude's RWHP, and with a conservative estimate of 15% driveline loss, (180 RWHP 180 ÷ 85% = ~211 BHP), we can see he is getting near CGT performance with a relatively conservative tune. His turbo is capable of plenty more boost, and there's more he can do with fuel and spark management.

Taking all of these into consideration, I think it is entirely conceivable to build a reliable 300+ BHP motor running at ~1 bar. The motor I've built for the Holbert Superwide should be capable of this since it will run VEMS and has a hybrid 951S turbo. I would also have ZERO hesitation to add water-meth injection to the intercooled setup, which is why all the new version of the TMIC and TMCC have a port specifically for it. I run 8.3:1 pistons and 12 PSI of boost all day long on the 941 (no other intercooling, stock S1 fuel and spark), and have ZERO problems with detonation. Harder to gauge that car compared to the CGT due to its weight, but it's very close. I am 100% sold on the benefits of water-meth injection.

So to net it out, everything else being equal, I think a conservate tune on EFI could easily be worth 50 BHP. Probably more with more agressive tuning, and perhaps some variable boost control.
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Cédric  



Joined: 27 Aug 2004
Posts: 1985
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 20, 2019 5:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well it all really depends. If you get fuelling and timing correctly theres very little gains at all with EFI(though that might not always be easy). What you are stuck with though is some pretty severe pressure drop over the flap, however if that will be an issue is mostly turbo related. If you have a big turbo and not maxing it the pressure drop will have little effect, a couple of horses according to my studies. However if you max out a very small compressor it will have a much bigger effect. Or if you will aim for much bigger horsepower goals.

The EFI system have of course much better safety systems, like knock control, EGT safety, fuel pressure safety, WBO2 closed loop, overboost protection etc, and is Much easier to tune and log when you want to do change major stuff. And also to get transient behavior spot on, which is one thing im not sorted yet (fireballs at throttle lift of)


Regarding the overfuelling, with the S2 fuel system setup on my car it was dead easy to solve for my boost levels (1bar), i simply unplugged the boost line to the wur(ok I discovered it by mistake:) ), check the last plot in my car thread. However im not sure it have more to give at the max rpm point, i dont think so, not without modding at least.

http://www.924board.org/viewtopic.php?t=40495&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=180
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ideola  



Joined: 01 Oct 2004
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Location: Woodstock IL

PostPosted: Fri Dec 20, 2019 6:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cédric wrote:
Regarding the overfuelling, with the S2 fuel system setup on my car it was dead easy to solve for my boost levels (1bar), i simply unplugged the boost line to the wur(ok I discovered it by mistake:) )


Well, that would be about the easiest fix I could imagine!!!!!!! Certainly worth a try!
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ideola  



Joined: 01 Oct 2004
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 20, 2019 6:27 am    Post subject: Re: Intercoolers Reply with quote

ideola wrote:
I will be ordering 3 intercoolers in the next couple of weeks.


I have verbal commitments for 7 units, and intend to place the order next week, assuming those invoices are paid in a timely manner.

Any other interest?
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poor-sche  



Joined: 06 Jan 2017
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Location: Los Angeles, CA

PostPosted: Sat Dec 21, 2019 10:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I’m interested. Sent you an email yesterday but didn’t get a response back. Not sure if you received the email?
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ideola  



Joined: 01 Oct 2004
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 22, 2019 1:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

poor-sche wrote:
I’m interested. Sent you an email yesterday but didn’t get a response back. Not sure if you received the email?

Sorry, was out of office all day yesterday. Just replied.
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Fasteddie313  



Joined: 29 Sep 2013
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 22, 2019 5:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think these intercoolers are definitely enough to max out a mildly prepped 931 engine, so a +1 from me..

Though with the A2A version, you might not want to boost hard on one until you have been at speed for a moment or 2, to get it working again after sitting..

They will also easily connect to any turbo/compressor you can fit with the stock exhaust manifold iirc right?

Might be difficult to put your own BOV on it though.. Maybe get a BOV flange welded directly onto the IC tank, or on the piping directly off the compressor..
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