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Guards red, India red?

 
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joecitizennn  



Joined: 12 Sep 2005
Posts: 2096
Location: no mans land

PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 2:46 pm    Post subject: Guards red, India red? Reply with quote

Are guards red and india red the same? I painted the bumpers on this 944 with some single stage urethane in guards red and it looks very close but a little more orange. Unfortunately the tag listing the paint code has been removed. I expected some difference as red is hard to match especially when faded, but this has me wondering, what is the story on india red??


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edredas  



Joined: 09 Dec 2004
Posts: 855
Location: Charlotte, NC

PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 3:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Joe, there are several Guards Reds.

025
027

80K
84A


All 924/944 were painted Guards Red 027, but had VW India Red/LM3A stickers.

VW LM3A (India Red) won't match, but if you ask for Porsche (Guards Red) LM3A it will.

In 1986 Porsche started using 80K on the 911 and 928 only. It's lighter than 027, and more orange.

If you ask for Guards Red, they'll often give you 80k or 84A. BTDT
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joecitizennn  



Joined: 12 Sep 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 11:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I used lm3a, but it was more orange than the car. Too bad I dont have the original code. The color is not that far off though. Thanks for the info.
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edredas  



Joined: 09 Dec 2004
Posts: 855
Location: Charlotte, NC

PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2012 6:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's some additional info. I hope that it will help you find the right color.

When ordering a batch of paint, ask them to look at the formula's. If their LM3A and 80K have the same formula, walk away!

Guards Red 025/G1= ? (1974-1987)

Guards Red 027/G8= ? (1973-1987)

Guards Red 027/G1= Stuttgart cars (1973-1987)
Guards Red LM3A/G1= Neckarsulm Cars (1979-1991)
Variations: 90 Lighter


Guards Red 80K/G1= Stuttgart cars (1986-2004)
Guards Red 84A/G1= Uusikaupunki/Stuttgart (1994-Present)
Variations: 40 Darker - 80 Red - A5 Dirtier and Blue

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musicalannette  



Joined: 21 Feb 2012
Posts: 413
Location: UK

PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2012 6:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi,

im in the process of spraying my car at the moment. The paint was badly faded and if i tried to polish it, the fade would ccme back after a week. it made it look unloved.

india red is quite a bit more orange and is lighter than guards red. it has a zing the guards doesnt when you look in sunlight. this is the original colour on my car, as it matched the paint inside the engine bay. (code LM3A sticker inside the boot near the spare wheel).

if you have a look on the how -to i just posted of the hatch repair for $15 you can see the rest of the car is india red the door are guards red. (im not leaving it like this, there on the to do list!)

when i enquired about paint the few companies had about 4 versions of guards red so i would get a colour chart to match it properly.


hope this helps

ps be sure to use a clear lacquer or the fade might come back.
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edredas  



Joined: 09 Dec 2004
Posts: 855
Location: Charlotte, NC

PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 9:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote





These are solid blocks of paint that I left to dry.

Both of these colors are standard mixes from my local DuPont paint supplier and are perfect matches.

musicalannette wrote:
india red is quite a bit more orange and is lighter than guards red


Outside of North America, these colors are called Indischrot or Indian Red.

Porsche thought this name might be offensive, so they changed the name to Guards Red here.

India Red is LM3A/G3 and it was never used by Porsche.

Porsche used Indischrot (Indian Red)/Guards Red LM3A/G1 and this seems to confuse people.

80K Indischrot/Guards Red is lighter than 027/LM3A and is the color you're describing. (see photo above)
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'86 944 -Garnet, Fully loaded, Koni suspension
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'87 924S -Red, New Project
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musicalannette  



Joined: 21 Feb 2012
Posts: 413
Location: UK

PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 10:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, when i tried to find a colour match for the paint I had here in the uk, the supplier said there was 1 shade of indischrot and about 4 of guards red, normally what a paint supplier (like dupont or ici) does is have a large colour map, this map might have 65 thousand colours maybee more, they find the one which is closest to the paint on the car and then pick that colour calling it guards red or ford glasier white or whatever. So the supplier i went to said there were 4 "guards reds" and one indian red.

I know the indian red I was supplied was a perfect match for what was under the bonnet. and the boot sticker was lm3a not 027 IIRC, so the paint company here call it indian red, which makes sense as the red doesnt match a coldstream uniform, and they are "the guards".

the fact there were 4 guards reds aswell ithink they started 027 IIRC(and they didnt match the colour under my bonnet as we tried those first) might only add more confusion into the mix but the guard red i was refering too was the paint already on the car from where it had been keyed and painted in the wrong colour (which is quite a bit darker than lm3a), the 80k looks lighter agian!

not much help, but at least your aware now why there are 4 027 guards reds with holts at least. There may well be more with them than porsche produced. You might be able to bypass all the named paint and actually get the original paint manufacturers colour map, this will let you pick the colour from the 65000 or whatever and get an exact match, even to any fade or incorrect mixing.
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Slam  



Joined: 07 Jan 2005
Posts: 1692
Location: Wainwright, Alberta, Canada

PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 4:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice refinish, even if it isn't a perfect match. What did you finish with? I'm asking 'cause Mand's in the middle of painting a quarter panel and wants the same look you got. BTW, local outlet matched the LM3A Indischrot perfectly and it's the lighter of the two colors on your car.
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edredas  



Joined: 09 Dec 2004
Posts: 855
Location: Charlotte, NC

PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2012 12:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

musicalannette wrote:
the boot sticker was lm3a not 027 IIRC


That is correct. Each factory had their own paint codes. Cars built in the Neckarsulm factory had paint code LM3A for Guards Red.

This is from the color sample book that the dealers used.

"027, Identical with L M3A"



027 is the part number for LM3A in the PET.

PET:

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musicalannette  



Joined: 21 Feb 2012
Posts: 413
Location: UK

PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2012 8:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ahh, thanks for pointing that out, I know where this cars been built.

But there must have been some other differences, because the 027 paint that was mixed did not match the LM3A paint that was mixed (and there were four shades of 027 and 1 of LM3A, all were different). As I said this is not from Porsche, this is from the paint company who have tried to match what was coming out the factory.

But it does explain why there one colour called Indian Red (LM3A)and there are four Guards Reds (027) outside the states. I never even looked into the 80K colour, so I am not sure what that would be called here.

It is nice to know the car was built at the old NSU plant (VW hav saved no end of factories from demise), so far it seems to be very well assembled. Not too expensive either, bit like going to LIDL. Now if LIDL started doing off the shelf 924 parts..............wouldnt that be nice.
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edredas  



Joined: 09 Dec 2004
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2012 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

musicalannette wrote:
But there must have been some other differences, because the 027 paint that was mixed did not match the LM3A


Hard to say what the problem is. The formula is the same for both codes.

Who is the supplier?
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musicalannette  



Joined: 21 Feb 2012
Posts: 413
Location: UK

PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2012 11:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

if you look at my earlier post, you will see that the supplier (holts) has used a colour chart to pick the colour from the car, the problem is that the cars WERE a different colour when they had matched them to the codes. Maybee it was over a time period and the cars had faded, had to say, im sure there could be a whole load of reasons.

Thing is they were different when we tried them.

I doubt it was a holts problem as it was taken off the car, more probably a problem with slight variations over time if the colours had faded or more probably, something like basecolours used to make the red (such as small quantities of yellow or green or white, etc etc) may have had to be changed over a time period.

I certainly know that some paints cannot easily be used here in europe now (such as proper red lead oxide) and if any of the component parts are like this, it may have caused a slight change. I certainly know the chassis on my land rover needs better paint. but i doubt they can coat it in anything "good" like "red lead" without a real "performance" in their spraying area.

This seems a more likely reason for any changes that might have occured that were not planned at the factory.
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edredas  



Joined: 09 Dec 2004
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 8:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

edredas wrote:
Hard to say what the problem is.



musicalannette wrote:
im sure there could be a whole load of reasons.


Yep,

I think you're spot on, and I don't mean to simplify how difficult it can be to match this color.
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joecitizennn  



Joined: 12 Sep 2005
Posts: 2096
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 2:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

More guards red. I do love to paint.







_________________
87 924s
88 924SE gone
447 hp cgt clone
87 924S gone
84 944 sold
83 944 sold
89 turbo S LSD, ABS etc
86 951 white rocket
85 944 sport everything.
84 944 sold.
87 944 sold
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