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Installing a Water/Methanol Injection Kit
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ideola  



Joined: 01 Oct 2004
Posts: 15366
Location: Woodstock IL

PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 4:14 am    Post subject: Installing a Water/Methanol Injection Kit Reply with quote

This week, I installed a Snow Performance Stage 2 Water/Methanol Injection System (part# 20010) on the 941. The previous weekend, I finally was able to correct the faulty wastegate, and installed a dual-port in-cabin boost controller while I was at it. I'll post more details on that install later.

I decided to try out the water/meth approach on the 941 because it will provide an excellent comparison to the top mount intercooler of the 937 and the top mount charge cooler on the Club Sport. Here are photos of the components in their installed locations:

I installed the pump on the front inner fender well. This was easy for me because I had previously relocated the ignition module to the little tray / shelf that sits at the bottom of the fender just behind the LHS headlight. The bracket for the ignition module provides a perfect location to tuck the pump out of the way, with relatively easy routing of the electrical and water lines:


The kit includes a nice reservoir, but I didn't want to have to deal with making my own brackets or mounting setup. Since the 941 has already been converted to the 944 coolant reservoir, I decided to see if I could use the stock coolant reservoir and bracket instead. All I had to do was make a minor downward bend on the bracket to clear the 944 coolant reservoir.



Here is a good shot of the water line port that was provided with the kit (lower right corner of the photo). As a stroke of amazing luck, the threaded insert screwed right into the lower hose barb fitting of the stock coolant tank. It was very snug, and actually cut threads in the plastic. The "goop" provided in the kit, sealed it up nicely. I also used an M6 bolt to plug the upper overflow port:


I had to purchase a 1/8-27 NPT tap and die. I practiced on a busted up charge tube. This was the scariest part of the install...drilling a hole in my charge tube, and then tapping it for the nozzle. The kit included three nozzles, I used the smallest one, which is rated for 250-325BHP applications. The nozzle needs to go as close to the throttle plate as possible. You can install it after the throttle plate if you also purchase the optional solenoid setup to prevent backflow during off-throttle. I chose to put it before the throttle plate:



I mounted the control module on the LHS inner fender frame spar, just next to the fuel filter. In the lower left hand corner of this photo, you can see the white Tee in the boost signal line; this line is fed from the S2 port on the back of the manifold used to provide boost input to the DITC; since the 941 is an S1/S2 hybrid with no DITC, I use this port & line to feed my boost gauge. I simply teed into it using the Tee and line provided in the kit. This boost signal line is used to feed MAP to the control module:


The control module has some small dials on it that let you set where the spray begins and the max output. I set the lower threshold to ~5-6 PSI, and set the upper to the max setting. The control module varies the voltage to the pump based on the boost signal, which in turn provides a linear increase in boost-cooling spray into the charge tube as boost increases.

The kit includes a green LED and a red LED. The green LED is configured to indicate when the pump is activated, and the red LED is configured to indicate when the reservoir is low. I have not yet installed the low-fluid sensor, but I did go ahead and install the LEDs in my A-Pillar gauge pod, right next to the boost gauge. This is an ideal location, as the green LED lights right up as the boost hits the 5-6 psi range on the gauge, and stays on until boost falls below that threshold:




The wiring was pretty simple, just need to find a source for keyed-ignition to tap into. The instructions were clear and easy to follow, including the mechanical test routine and the electrical test routine to make sure the components are all working properly before driving the car. I was very impressed with the kit, as it included everything required for the install except for a mounting bracket for the reservoir, and the NPT tap & die.
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15 981 GTS | 04 955 Turbo | 88 924S SE | 82 931 (x2) | 81 937 | 81 Euro 931 | 81 Weissach | 80 US 928 | 80 US 931 '941' | 80 US 931 | 80 931 GTR | 79 Sebring | 78 D-Prod (x2) | 78 Poli-Form | 78 Limited Edition | 77 Martini
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ideola  



Joined: 01 Oct 2004
Posts: 15366
Location: Woodstock IL

PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 4:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

After I got everything installed and tested, I took the car out for some test runs. I really like the in-cabin boost controller setup I have...it's the same one that I configured in the Club Sport. Looks like this installed:


This regulator has very large ports. I am using 1/8" hose barbs with 1/8-27 NPT 90-degree threaded fittings to provide mounting points for the boost signal line. The signal line is standard off-the-shelf 1/4" fuel line, and I'm using spring-style hose clamps to keep the lines on the hose barbs. This regulator does not exhibit any boost spikes whatsoever, as is commonly reported with other off-the-shelf boost controllers, which have small port sizes and can't contend with the relatively massive chamber of our 930-derived wastegate. Not a problem for this setup!

As you can see from the photo, I mounted the boost controller by modifying the ashtray. To change boost settings, it is quite easy to snap the little knob up, and then give it a twist. I was very happy with the "granularity" of the regulator, as I was concerned that tiny turns would result in big changes. Not so.

My wastegate currently has the stock US-spec 6 psi spring. With the knob turned all the way counter clockwise, I have stock US-spec 6 psi of boost. A 180 degree turn takes me up to 10 psi. Another quarter turn from there, I have ~12 psi, and another quarter turn or so puts me at ~15 psi. So the granularity is nice and very intuitive.

To plumb the boost controller, I put a brass tee into the port where the boost cutoff switch is located. The boost cutoff switch goes in one port, and another 1/8 NPT barbed hose fitting goes in the other. I connected the "feed" or "inlet" line to this fitting, ran under the charge tube and into the cockpit, down under the console and over to the ash tray, where it is connected to the inlet of the regulator. Another line is connected to the outlet of the regulator, run back under the console, through the firewall, and then down behind and under the coil to where the wastegate sits. I used a barbed banjo fitting with an M10 (I think) banjo bolt to connect the outlet from the regulator to the top port of the wastegate (after unscrewing the stock "mushroom" vent valve, of course).

Routing the boost actuator in this fashion provides pressure to the top of the wastegate, keeping the valve firmly closed until the specified pressure is exceeded. This gives you full benefit of ALL of the boost with no wastegate creep, until the desired pressure is reached and the valve cracks open.

I have only just begun experimenting with the boost controller and the meth injection. I am currently running straight windshield solvent, and have not yet experimented with the "boost juice" provided with the Snow Performance kit. In any event, on a typical Michigan summer evening run, with ambient temps below 80F, I could run about 10 psi with no worries about pinging. about 12 psi, and under some conditions, I could here some very slight pinging.

With the meth injection kit, there is no pinging whatsoever at 12, and I took it as far as 15psi, and couldn't hear any pinging. I am reluctant to push too hard too fast, as I don't want to blow up this motor, but I am confident that 15 psi with the meth injection going should be no problem.

And let me just say, the difference between 6 psi, 10 psi, 12 psi, and 15psi is palpable. So far, even though I am very early in my experimentation, I am extremely pleased with this setup...and I suspect the 941 can easily hang with the 937...maybe even outpace it.

I am just starting to think about a knock detector, and still have hopes of getting to a dyno for better tuning, but that will be down the road. In the meantime, for the money and ease of installation, I don't understand why more of us aren't just getting a boost controller and meth injection kit. Intercoolers are nice, for sure, but this setup was less than $600 all in, and took the better part of a day to install...which is way cheaper, less trouble, and less expense than installing an intercooler.
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15 981 GTS | 04 955 Turbo | 88 924S SE | 82 931 (x2) | 81 937 | 81 Euro 931 | 81 Weissach | 80 US 928 | 80 US 931 '941' | 80 US 931 | 80 931 GTR | 79 Sebring | 78 D-Prod (x2) | 78 Poli-Form | 78 Limited Edition | 77 Martini
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Joes924Racer  



Joined: 03 Nov 2002
Posts: 11965
Location: Oregon, Denver Colorado native!

PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 9:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey Ideola thats pretty cool man,
plx makes a super cool combo guage. The package Im looking at is the
DM-6 SM-AFR Combo ... 4 $199.99 you get wideband afm, boost & vac.
& oxy sensor ... for another $99 you get another module that reads incoming air temp & exhaust gas temp.
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1979 porsche 924 Na
1980 porsche Turbo 931GT Replica
Have u ever driven a turbo.
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fiat22turbo  



Joined: 18 Jan 2006
Posts: 4040
Location: Portland, OR

PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 10:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For that much you could buy a MegaSquirt II and use it to monitor all of that for you and download the data logs at the end of a run.

Or use a Smart phone with ato log the data live and combine it with GPS, accelerometer and speed data.
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Stefan
1979 924 Carrera GTS (clone-ish)
1988 944 Turbo S (Silver Rose)
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kcoyle  



Joined: 15 Jan 2011
Posts: 711
Location: Long Island, NY

PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 10:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ideola wrote:
I don't understand why more of us aren't just getting a boost controller and meth injection kit. Intercoolers are nice, for sure, but this setup was less than $600 all in, and took the better part of a day to install...which is way cheaper, less trouble, and less expense than installing an intercooler.


This.

After reading about all the custom IC setups out there and all work that is involved I decided that this is the way to go for me. I was looking at either the Snow or Devils Own kit with a progressive controller and was going to use the same 944/931 tank solution too. Now I know they will both fit next to each other.
Well done, and thanks for the write up.
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1982 931- Stock with MBC at 8psi

Relax, all right? My old man is a television repairman, he's got this ultimate set of tools. I can fix it.
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ideola  



Joined: 01 Oct 2004
Posts: 15366
Location: Woodstock IL

PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 12:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't forget, the Snow Performance stuff is discounted through the 24th...
http://www.924board.org/viewtopic.php?t=37180
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15 981 GTS | 04 955 Turbo | 88 924S SE | 82 931 (x2) | 81 937 | 81 Euro 931 | 81 Weissach | 80 US 928 | 80 US 931 '941' | 80 US 931 | 80 931 GTR | 79 Sebring | 78 D-Prod (x2) | 78 Poli-Form | 78 Limited Edition | 77 Martini
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CÚdric  



Joined: 27 Aug 2004
Posts: 1546
Location: Sweden

PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 3:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very very interesting, look forward to a dyno session !

Regarding knock detection, I bought this one on ebay:

http://www.knocklite.com/

Really like it, small enough to be easily mounted Wihtout a huge ugly display), and best of all it works! Probably saved my engine until I got ignition and fuel sorted. Nowdays and dont se it blinking, but thats a good sign There is a great spot for mounting a knock sensor on the engine block between 2nd and 3rd cylinder, already taped hole.
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daniel  



Joined: 18 Jun 2009
Posts: 601
Location: Sydney, Australia

PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 4:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Cedric,
I am interested in the knock sensor, can you tell me what type of sensor you are using?

Thanks
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Over the top of skyline, total brake failure.... hit the wall at over 200 kp/h at the dipper, so anyone who has to brake for the esses is a pussy.
1977.5 Race Car, CAMS Group S Spec
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CÚdric  



Joined: 27 Aug 2004
Posts: 1546
Location: Sweden

PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

daniel wrote:
Hi Cedric,
I am interested in the knock sensor, can you tell me what type of sensor you are using?

Thanks


Standard Bosch sensor, also bought on ebay. Just threaded it in the hole in the block, then put some cable protection on the cables and routed it in to the cabin.
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Carrera RSR  



Joined: 08 Jan 2010
Posts: 1405
Location: Somerset, UK

PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 6:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ideola wrote:
I don't understand why more of us aren't just getting a boost controller and meth injection kit. Intercoolers are nice, for sure, but this setup was less than $600 all in, and took the better part of a day to install...which is way cheaper, less trouble, and less expense than installing an intercooler.


Looking forward to the dyno sessions on all your cars to prove/disprove which charge cooling device works the best. Until then I'll reserve judgement of the options available until the facts are in black and white on a dyno sheet. When is this likely to happen Dan? If the meth inj works well and can produce over 200bhp (my parts car gave 198bhp with a Heath Robinson approach to the IC install) without the need for IC then I'm pretty sure it will be looked upon favourably (at 1.0 bar boost and a solid engine and the charge is cooled enough then well north of 200bhp should be attainable). Looks simple to set up and I have discussed a similar approach in tandem with my FMIC. Looking forward to the numbers ......
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1980 931 - forged pistons, Piper cam, CGT turbo, 951 ducted FMIC, custom intake, Mittelmotor dizzy & cam pulley, H&S exhaust, GAZ Gold, Fuch'ed, Quaife LSD
Now www.924board.org/viewtopic.php?t=34690
Then www.924board.org/viewtopic.php?t=31252
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Euro924S2  



Joined: 06 Mar 2008
Posts: 162
Location: UK

PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2012 8:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

WI is certainly a well proven method but its not without its potential problems either.

For example a blocked water jet can lead to engine killing detonation very quickly so de-ionised water should be used really with a very fine filter to avoid limescale formation.

Also, WI needs to be carefully tuned to give it best advantage. My brother has it fitted to his supercharged MX5. It was fully 3D tuned relative to the fuel map with a high speed control valve. On the dyno it made 170bhp with the WI enabled, but 215bhp with it switched off (this is with a air to water charge cooler also fitted) !! Obviously it was putting in too much water and killing the flame front but a good demonstration of how a slight mis-calculation can really stuff things up!! I think it was calculated on 15% of the fuel by weight.

All that said, I have bought a brand new devils own kit to fit pre-SC on mine to help cool the rotors when I'm running upto 18psi.

As Steve has said - lets see the dyno results!!
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UK spec '83 N/A with 931 motor with Eaton MP62 'charger @ 15psi. EFI - 565cc inj. Standalone Adaptronic ECU. 951 FMIC. Ally rad. Twin throttle. Recirc valve. Custom manifolds and CAI. 232bhp
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ideola  



Joined: 01 Oct 2004
Posts: 15366
Location: Woodstock IL

PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 12:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I picked up a KnockSense setup and hope to get it installed over the weekend...although I might get sidetracked installing the aux fuse panel first...running out of places to safely tap for switched 12V!
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15 981 GTS | 04 955 Turbo | 88 924S SE | 82 931 (x2) | 81 937 | 81 Euro 931 | 81 Weissach | 80 US 928 | 80 US 931 '941' | 80 US 931 | 80 931 GTR | 79 Sebring | 78 D-Prod (x2) | 78 Poli-Form | 78 Limited Edition | 77 Martini
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CÚdric  



Joined: 27 Aug 2004
Posts: 1546
Location: Sweden

PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 7:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Any news? Dyno runs? Im very interested in the results!

Btw
Were on an engine conference last week were Porsche presented some work they done with downsized turbo engines and water injection (among other stuff), very interesting, can post their presentation later:-)
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Joes924Racer  



Joined: 03 Nov 2002
Posts: 11965
Location: Oregon, Denver Colorado native!

PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 6:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like it Ideola... Ill get that boost guage and injection down the road ...this week im buying the dm-6 afr combo guage for a start. Also heres a tasty tidbit of news ...my girlfriends kid is moving out in december so ill get the garage fulltime.. woot woot.
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CÚdric  



Joined: 27 Aug 2004
Posts: 1546
Location: Sweden

PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As promised:

Porsche does downsizing, among other things simulation is done with water inj:

http://www.gtisoft.com/upload/IncreasingDownsizingLevelWithReducingFuelPorsche.pdf

I love the pic in the beginning where all the 911 turbo torque curves are over layed. Amazing how much things has progressed in turbocharging since the 70s
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