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Fuel Additive discussion,plus.

 
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Zuffen  



Joined: 31 Jul 2001
Posts: 1421
Location: Owasso, Oklahoma 74055

PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2002 2:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Guys (you know who you are) lets put a stop on these general topics at least in this section. It is more suited for the Performance or General Discussion.

Your welcome to put a link message pointing to the discussion, but for the most part , fuel additives and enviormental practices by goverments and multi billion dollar oil cartels doesn't have a place in the 931 section.

I do applaud the topic of this discussion and encourage the use of the forum for it.

Just remember that any ideas and theories posted may not be correct or be safe, material posted should be used at your own disgression.

Thanks sub-Mgmt



_________________
Bob Dodd - 924turbo@cox.net
931 1982, 944 1982 euro, 924S 1988SE, 93 968 tip 06 Silver Cayenne S, 06 Black Cayenne S

I have Way too many cars, parts for the 931,944 and 951
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Rick MacLaren  
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2002 12:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's ok, Bob, you can identify me by name. I have no shame over introducing a simple topic like alternative fuels to our discussions here. Nor to adding my name to the list of those openly willing to discuss it. Just to confirm what you've said, I didn't present it as a 'prescription', nor as a 'must do', but merely introduced it as a reasonable idea to consider. I've done the same with ethanol, isopropanol, and methanol, simply because these are commonly used and widely accepted elsewhere in the racing and driving world, even if they are subjects that raise the ire of some readers.

I think there's fear around using these fuels because people don't understand them. That is perfectly understandable. There's a lot of chemistry there and physics and it's not easy. Nor do many understand the concept of 'simulation'. That's ok too. But for your records, Bob, I honestly didn't intend for it to become anything else except a useful tool for 931 owners to use - especially if they were considering an intercooler. The rationale for placing it here, not in General, was because the NA guys don't have the same concerns over detonation at boost. So I just thought "NA guys don't have to consider intercooler purchases. So, Porsche 931 owners could use alt fuels like tolulene, ethanol, isopropanol, methanol, to experiment with performance, attempting to reduce detonation, then, if the simulation worked, they could follow through on the more financially intense proposition of purchasing and installing an intercooler." I think you can you appreciate that rationale. But since alt fuels raised so much fear here, I'll drop it, and they DO belong more in Performance. That makes perfect sense.

I think as the discussion progressed the suggestion got interpreted way out of context. I don't want the environment harmed any more than anyone else does. I know I damned well don't want to discuss politics! I think astute readers can see through political factors being tossed onto the table of an automobile performance-oriented website.

Still, I think it's only fair to present where people can learn about these things in an open and free environment where they can make informed choices and decide for themselves after learning about them what they wish to do. After all, there are, indeed, two sides to each story, and if the environmentalists can get their day to speak about these additives and get the fear going, surely the informed reader should see the other side - if for nothing else than to educate and ameliorate fear. If you want, I can move these links to Performance or General, wherever you think is best:

911's, Audi 1.8 turbos and toluene

http://www.daliracing.com/v666-5/info/article_read.cfm?articleID=410

Karts and alt fuels

http://www.foxvalleykart.com/html/fuel3.html

Octane enhancement

http://www.clbryant.com/documents/Octane-Manual.pdf

Fear as an economic lever to reduce use of alternative fuels

http://www.radford.edu/~wkovarik/papers/fuel.html

Understanding fuel

http://www.apba.org/Forms/Fuel/THE%20QUESTION%20OF%20FUEL.pdf

UCSB research on environmental impacts of alt fuels on California air quality - shows 32% of fuel currently contain aromatics like toluene

Australia Fuel Quality Standards Bill

http://216.239.51.100/search?q=cache:wMLae6FiebgC:www.pc.gov.au/research/annrpt/reglnrev9900/ris/fqsb2000.pdf+fuel+discussion+car+ethanol+racing+toluene&hl=en

Lemme know. All the best. Rick


[ This Message was edited by: Rick MacLaren on 2002-06-05 05:31 ]
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Zuffen  



Joined: 31 Jul 2001
Posts: 1421
Location: Owasso, Oklahoma 74055

PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2002 2:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wasn't pointing fingers to you specifically Rick. It was an open discussion which kinda of snowballed. I think the links are very helpful . I just want everyone to get along.

As with any combustion additive, there will be gians in any combustion system, including Potatoe guns. Don't ask me how many fuel types I used to get an optimum flame to noise ratio while also achieving maximum velocity.

I think the scary thing is to use any fuel additive to a turbo system. The rates of delivery are very crucial and an engine can sustain peak reactor overload in short order, if you know what I mean.

We have alot of good guys here and several brave souls who would drop any kinda of add to the tank performance enhancement drug to the fuel. I would hate to read sad stories of melted pistons and connecting rod pieces tumbling around inside the block.

Keep up the "informative" good work. I personally would like to see everyone working on intercooler installs versus home brew chemistry. I little bit of knowlege is dangerous, so I've heard.

As for the enviormental factors well, piss on it, our society has lost that battle. We would have to give up so much to bring things back that it will never happen. And we really don't have a clue how it all works in the first place. If we had a clue we would burn our land every couple of years to reduce the natural enviormental hazards. We wouldn't build cities on fault lines or flood basins. But I digress.

Just let me have leaded gas again and allow me to change my oil on the grass.



_________________
Bob Dodd - 924turbo@cox.net
931 1982, 944 1982 euro, 924S 1988SE, 93 968 tip 06 Silver Cayenne S, 06 Black Cayenne S

I have Way too many cars, parts for the 931,944 and 951
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Cbass  
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2002 1:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bob, I'm very disappointed in you. You should really use ethanol, it's more enviromentally friendly, and gives you an excuse to make a super reflux still out of a 60 gallon water heater.

I think that the additive discussion has more to bring to the 931 discussion personally, after all, how many people actually have a high comp NA? The decision is entirely up to you though...
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Zuffen  



Joined: 31 Jul 2001
Posts: 1421
Location: Owasso, Oklahoma 74055

PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2002 3:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If I'm going to build a still, I just can't see myself wanting to do any other activity except consuming my fuel additive.

As for the discussion like I said it is a very worthwhile topic but only after you pursue more traditional improvements. Unless you don't mind adding to the cost of each tank fill. When it come to driving events the topic is very important as you want the best condition to perform at peak output, but your still going to need want to improve the other systems , unless of course your looking for an easy occasional kick and only race twice a year.

Better fuel isn't limited to turbo cars it works across the board .

_________________
Bob Dodd - 924turbo@cox.net
931 1982, 944 1982 euro, 924S 1988SE, 93 968 tip 06 Silver Cayenne S, 06 Black Cayenne S

I have Way too many cars, parts for the 931,944 and 951
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View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
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