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Tolulene
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Rick MacLaren  
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PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2002 2:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Try it. You'll like it. Boost happy 931 guys should enjoy this one...$47 CDN at your local Sherwin Williams Paint store for a 5 gallon tank.
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gohim  
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PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2002 2:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's real smart, if you want to replace your entire fuel injection system.

Tolulene eats rubber.

THIS IS BAD ADVICE ! ! ! ! !
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Rick MacLaren  
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PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2002 3:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

When you GAS UP, you get TOLULENE in your gas, already. If you'd waited around to hear my replies you'd see that 2 gals per tank is perfectly reasonable, depending on gas tank size. These guys use 2, but you can use 1.

I'm sick and tired of your groundless harassment, Gohim. Check the 944 board at Rennlist...it's marketed as Toluene and it raises octane. It's used by 930, 931, and 951 owners who all report good results. Reports from the board, from folks who've tried it, go as follows:

David Floyd
Rennlist Member
User # 38
posted 05-29-2002 21:55
I buy it at Sherwin Williams Paint store and the can is labeled Toluene.

David Floyd
87 951
PCA#1998126580

Dave951M
User # 465
posted 05-29-2002 22:25
Laquer thinner is NOT the same! Toluene is sold at paint stores and is marked as such. If the clerk doesn't know what it is, they shouldn't be working there. I too, shop at the Sherwin Williams Speed Shop. where you can even purchase toluene by the 55 gallon drum should you be so inclined.
Dave951M

Water944t
User # 5892
posted 05-29-2002 23:10
Sherwin Williams has recently had tolulene on sale for $5.69 a gallon. I stocked up for the summer with 20 gallons. I figure at 2 gallons per fillup, I am set for a while.

I am a believer in this stuff, I cant buy decent gas around here, and my car sure seems to appreciate the extra octane.

79 Guards 924, first love, fondly remembered.
85.5 944, Guards daily driver till '98
86 951, 83k, Alpine White, fixed the PS leak!

Seattle944t
User # 1570
posted 04-30-2002 01:49
Actually Toluene does have about 15% more BTU/gallon than gasoline, and about 20% more than oxygenated gas. That w/o any additional ignition advance will give more power. W/ additional ignition advance the gains can be even greater...
BTU content of gas:
http://www.epa.gov/otaq/rfgecon.htm
BTU content of Toluene (and a bunch of others)
http://www.venuspetrochem.com/propchem.htm

If you want the properties of TOLULENE check out SHELL ... you can read their public information Gohim:

http://www.shellchemicals.com/toluene/1,1098,277,00.html

Even SUNOCO:

http://www.sunocoinc.com/aboutsunoco/mktrefine.htm

>

[ This Message was edited by: Rick MacLaren on 2002-05-31 05:58 ]
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gohim  
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PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2002 5:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

rick,

Did you read the stuff that you reprinted in the General Discussion Section?

*******************************************

...EPA has set a limit of 1 milligram per liter of drinking water (1 mg/L).

Discharges, releases, or spills of more than 1,000 pounds of toluene must be reported to the National Response Center.

The Occupational Safety and Health Administration has set a limit of 200 parts toluene per million of workplace air (200 ppm)...

********************************************

So how much are you going to put into the air if you add 2 gallons of Tolulene to each tank of gas? If you are filling with say, 14 gallons total, you would be pouring in 2 gallons of Tolulene and 12 gallons of gas. that comes out to be 14% Tolulene. How much of that is going to end up in the air that you are breathing? A Level of 200ppm is considered hazardous according to the material that you supplied, and that's .0002%.

The information that you reprinted in the General Discussion Area shows how toxic it really is.

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Rick MacLaren  
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PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2002 5:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is the ONLY necessary ingredient to raise your octane. It is ALREADY in your gas. It is used widely to raise octane.

Personal attacks on my credibility are potentially legal matters. I'd rather have the site administration deal with this than deal with Gohim directly. It is not fair that I should have to defend my credibility to an anonymous person. Or to see my credibility slurred and maligned by an anonymous person hiding behind the cloak of anonymity.
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Rick MacLaren  
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PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2002 6:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Q: Isn't toluene an extremely toxic substance?

A: The common perception of toluene's toxicity far exceeds reality. Fortunately there is an ample body of information available that specifically addresses this question. Toluene is more toxic than gasoline but it is certainly not agent orange or cyanide.

US Environmental Protection Agency Chemical Summary

US Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry (ATSDR)

National priority list of toxic substances
Note that the ATSDR also rates gasoline as a hazardous substance.

Mobil's spec sheet for toluene even goes as far as saying that "Based on available toxicological information, it has been determined that this product poses no significant health risk when used and handled properly."

http://forums.audiworld.com/s4/msgs/95187.phtml

Read this about octane boosting with tolulene
User account number (aid): 4461
Posted by ELF on 2000-07-11 22:03:25
Rocket fuel FAQ
Copyright ã 1999,2000 by Eliot Lim This paper may be freely distributed, provided it is distributed in its entirety
Last revised: February 8, 2000


Background

In late 1997 I became the lucky owner of 1 out of 150 1998 Porsche 993 Targas, the very last of the air cooled classics. As I drove it through the winter of 1997 and into the spring of 1998 I noticed that the engine lost some of its sweetness. Since this behavior was strongly related to ambient and engine temperature I suspected that the engine electronics were retarding its ignition timing due to insufficient fuel octane.

I started experimenting with octane boosting by first adding small doses of over the counter octane boosters and noticed immediate improvement. The engine ran smoother and quieter, was more willing to rev and had noticeably sharper throttle response. The octane shortage was confirmed by the sticker on the filler cap that stated that 93 octane fuel was needed. Since the highest octane rated fuel that was commonly available in Washington state is 92, I decided to investigate long term cost effective octane boosting so that I could fully enjoy the performance that this car offered.

My other car at the time, a 1990 Audi V8 quattro had an even more dramatic response to octane boosting. I managed to convince a few good friends to try it and the reaction was overwhelmingly positive. When I attempted a broader based dissemination of this exciting find, I was greeted largely by broad unyielding skepticism and plenty of FUD (fear, uncertainty, doubt) regarding toxicity, safety and engine damage. There arose a need to more clearly explain the details of octane boosting, hence giving rise to this article.


Q: Will my car benefit from octane boosting?

A: Consumer organizations have effectively emphasized the larger markups that oil companies charge for high octane gasoline, implying that for most vehicles higher octane fuel is a complete waste of money. It has been quite a long time since the consumer alert was issued. Since then engine technology has evolved greatly, while people's perceptions generally have not.

Modern vehicles now use computerized engine management systems that can react to engine knock and retard ignition timing if low octane fuel is being used. Consequently cars are now being manufactured with very high compression ratios that appear to give good fuel economy and at the same time good performance. This combination does assume that fuel of adequate octane is being used.


Q: Why bother to boost octane at all since my engine can run just fine on lower octane fuel?

A: For a high compression engine to run on low octane fuel, the engine management system will need to retard the ignition timing to prevent preignition or pinging. Retarding the ignition timing means that the firing of the spark plug is delayed until a later moment in the compression stroke. It does not take much to see that a later onset of combustion means that the combustion is less complete, which in turn mean less power and poorer fuel economy. It is possible that the casual driver will still come out ahead in terms of saving money by using low octane fuel, but the retarded ignition advance also means a rougher running engine and a much duller throttle response. Thus octane boosting is not necessarily of interest to all motorists but rather the enthusiasts.

For turbocharged or supercharged engines, insufficient octane will also lead the engine management system to curtail the amount of boost which in turn defeats the purpose of these engines.


Q: How did you discover using toluene?

A: Someone came across a web page that described various DIY home brew octane booster formulas. One of which used toluene as its main ingredient. As a Formula 1 racing fan of many years, I recalled that toluene was used extensively in the turbo era in the 1980s by all the Formula 1 teams. The 1.5 liter turbocharged engines ran as much as 5 bars of boost (73 psi) in qualifying and 4 bars (59 psi) in the actual race. Power output exceeded 1500bhp, which translates into 1000bhp/liter, an astronomical figure.

A motorsports journalist, Ian Bamsey, was able to obtain Honda's cooperation for his book "McLaren Honda Turbo, a Technical Appraisal". The book documents the key role that the toluene fuel played in allowing these tiny engines to run so much turbo boost without detonation. The term "rocket fuel" originated from the Formula 1 fraternity as an affectionate nickname to describe its devastating potency. Thus I concluded that I should focus my research on using toluene for my octane boosting project.

Individuals with good long term memory will recall that when unleaded gasoline was first introduced, only low octane grades were available. While it is not entirely clear that high octane super unleaded gas came about as a result of the advances in fuel technology in Formula 1, there is every reason to suspect that this is indeed the case, since many of the major oil companies were involved in the escalating race to develop increasingly potent racing fuel during this era.


Q: Why do you think toluene is better than other types of octane boosters?

A: Several reasons:

Mindful of the evil reputation of octane boosters in general, toluene is a very safe choice because it is one of the main octane boosters used by oil companies in producing ordinary gasoline of all grades. Thus if toluene is indeed harmful to your engine as feared, your engine would have disintegrated long, long ago since ordinary pump gasoline can contain as much as 50% aromatic hydrocarbons.

Toluene is a pure hydrocarbon (C7H8). i.e. it contains only hydrogen and carbon atoms. It belongs to a particular category of hydrocarbons called aromatic hydrocarbons. Complete combustion of toluene yields CO2 and H2O. This fact ensures that the entire emission control system such as the catalyst and oxygen sensor of your car is unaffected. There are no metallic compounds (lead, magnesium etc), no nitro compounds and no oxygen atoms in toluene. It is made up of exactly the same ingredients as ordinary gasoline. In fact it is one of the main ingredients of gasoline.

Toluene has a RON octane rating of 121 and a MON rating of 107, leading to a (R+M)/2 rating of 114. (R+M)/2 is how ordinary fuels are rated in the US. Note that toluene has a sensitivity rating of 121-107=14. This compares favorably with alcohols which have sensitivities in the 20-30 range. The more sensitive a fuel is the more its performance degrades under load. Toluene's low sensitivity means that it is an excellent fuel for a heavily loaded engine.

Toluene is denser than ordinary gasoline (0.87 g/mL vs. 0.72-0.74) and contains more energy per unit volume. Thus combustion of toluene leads to more energy being liberated and thus more power generated. This is in contrast to oxygenated octane boosters like ethanol or MTBE which contain less energy per unit volume compared to gasoline. The higher heating value of toluene also means that the exhaust gases contain more kinetic energy, which in turn means that there is more energy to drive turbocharger vanes. In practical terms this is experienced as a faster onset of turbo boost.

Chevron's published composition of 100 octane aviation fuel shows that toluene comprises up to 14% alone and is the predominant aromatic hydrocarbon. Unfortunately composition specifications for automotive gasoline is harder to pin down due to constantly changing requirements.

Chevron's web site also describes the problems of ethanol being used in gasoline.

MTBE was heavily touted as a clean additive several years ago, and became a key ingredient in reformulated gasoline that is sold in California. But recently new studies arose that showed that MTBE was far more toxic than previously imagined. Organizations such as oxybusters have formed around the country to eliminate the use of MTBE in gasoline and several states, including California have passed new laws to eventually outlaw MTBE.


Q: How much toluene should I use per tank of gas?

A: Octane ratings can be very easily calculated by simple averaging. For example, the tank of an Audi A4 1.8TQ is 15.6 gallons. Filling it with 14.6 gallons of 92 octane and 1 gallon of toluene (114 octane) will yield a fuel mix of:

(14.6 * 92) + (1 * 114) / 15.6 = 93.4

The Audi A4 1.8T is a good example of a car that has very high octane needs if it has been modified to produce more turbo boost. The base compression ratio of this car is a very high 9.5:1 and when an additional 1 bar (14.7 psi) of turbo boost is applied on top of it, the resulting effective compression ratio is way beyond what 92 or 93 octane fuel can ever hope to cope with. Most modified 1.8Ts running without octane enhancement are running with severely retarded ignition timing and boost.


Q: Will toluene damage my engine or other parts of my car?

A: A 5 or 10% increase in the aromatic content of gas will most likely be well within the refining specifications of gasoline defined by ASTM D4814, which specify an aromatic content of between 20% and 45%. What this means is that if the 92 octane gas that you started off with had an aromatic content of say 30% and you increased it by 10% to 40% you would still be left with a mix that meets the industry definition of gasoline. So the above question would amount to: "Will gasoline damage my engine or other parts of my car?"

Even in the unlikely event that the 92 octane gas has a aromatic content of 45% the resulting mix would still be within the bounds of gasoline sold in other countries.


Q: Isn't toluene an extremely toxic substance?

A: The common perception of toluene's toxicity far exceeds reality. Fortunately there is an ample body of information available that specifically addresses this question. Toluene is more toxic than gasoline but it is certainly not agent orange or cyanide.

US Environmental Protection Agency Chemical Summary

US Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry (ATSDR)

National priority list of toxic substances
Note that the ATSDR also rates gasoline as a hazardous substance.

Mobil's spec sheet for toluene even goes as far as saying that "Based on available toxicological information, it has been determined that this product poses no significant health risk when used and handled properly."


Q: Isn't toluene an active ingredient of TNT (trinitrotoluene) and is thus deadly?

A: In the same way that cotton wool is the base ingredient of nitrocellulose (guncotton) which in turn is the main ingredient in modern smokeless gunpowder. Using this reasoning one could conclude that cotton wool is a deadly substance. This question reflects a poor understanding of basic chemistry but unfortunately it has been asked often enough.


Q: How much does toluene cost, and where can I buy some?

A: $10/gallon in a one gallon can at a hardware store, about $6/gallon in a 5 gallon can from a chemical supply or paint store, or $3/gallon in a 55 gallon drum from a chemical supply warehouse.


Q: Can I just dump in 100% toluene into the tank like the F1 racers? vroom vroom vroom

A: First of all, the F1 racers did not use 100% toluene, but 84%. The other 16% in their brew is n-heptane, which has an octane rating of zero. The reason for this strange combination is because the F1 rocket fuel was limited to the rules to being of 102 RON octane. The n-heptane is "filler" to make the fuel comply with the rules.

Because toluene is such an effective anti knock fuel it also means that it is more difficult to ignite at low temperatures. The Formula 1 cars that ran on 84% toluene needed to have hot radiator air diverted to heat its fuel tank to 70C to assist its vaporization. Thus too strong a concentration of toluene will lead to poor cold start and running characteristics. I recommend that the concentration of toluene used to not exceed what the engine is capable of utilizing. i.e. Experiment with small increases in concentration until you can no longer detect an improvement.


Q: Why not simply use racing gasoline or aviation fuel?

A1: Most types of aviation fuel have very high lead content, which would rule out cars equipped with catalytic converters. Most piston engined aircraft burn leaded fuel. Also aviation fuel has a very different hydrocarbon mix to optimize volatility properties at high altitude.

A2: Racing gasoline could be a much more convenient way to run high octane fuel compared to having to constantly mix in toluene with each fill up. There are, however a few caveats:


You don't know for sure if you are really getting what is being advertised. You should find out if the fuel inspectors verify the actual octane of the racing gasoline in addition to ordinary gasoline. If you paid $3/gallon and only got 94 or 95 octane instead of 100 octane you may conclude erroneously that your car does not benefit from octane boosting.

You don't know what octane boosters are used in the racing gasoline. The worst case scenario is buying leaded racing gasoline without knowing it. Unleaded racing gasoline may still contain damaging octane boosters like MMT or methanol. A very high alcohol content will lead to fuel line erosion, accelerated fuel pump wear, very poor fuel economy and possibly lower performance, as alcohols have a less impressive MON rating than aromatics.

It takes smaller quantities of toluene to achieve the same octane boost compared to 100 octane racing gas. I have not seen unleaded racing gas for sale that exceeds the octane rating of toluene.

Since toluene is not officially sold as a fuel, gas taxes do not apply. Also racing gasoline tend to have higher markups being of interest to the performance minded enthusiast and thus is very likely to be more expensive to buy and use long term than toluene, which is typically used in more mundane applications like paint thinner.

Q: Ok, what is the catch?

A: It should be mentioned that in the US, efforts are underway to reduce the aromatic content of gasolines in general as a higher aromatic content leads to higher benzene emissions. Benzene is an extremely toxic substance. However it should also be noted that the proportions that is being discussed in this FAQ is relatively small and in the grand scheme of things is probably insignificant. Moreover, the industrial standard for defining gasoline composition allows plenty of leeway in aromatic content and the proportions present in US gas is already lower than most other countries. I therefore feel that the information provided here is useful to a performance minded car enthusiast while not being significantly detrimental to the environment.


Q: What safety measures can you recommend in handling toluene?

A: The following is a good reference guide:


Q: Do you have testimonies of others who have tried this?

A: Some samples of feedback is reprinted with the names removed below. You may contact me if you wish to contact the respondents directly.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Since I didn't have any reference point for how much to use, I dumped about a half gallon of this mix into a mostly empty tank (the GT has a 16 gallon tank) and then filled up with Chevron 92 octane.
I didn't get to drive the car until PIR the next morning, (my GF doesn't like the 200; it's too big) but the report was that there was no change for a mile or so, and then all of a sudden, the engine seemed to smooth out and became quite eager to rev and run.
Well, by that calculation, I only managed to bump the octane to just shy of 93, but it seemed to make a big difference. I ran the car hard all day, (for reference, it's got an '87 MC turbo motor, K26, 12psi boost, and currently no intercooler) and even at 12 pounds of boost, I never once felt the ECU backing the timing off. Granted, the ambient temps never got above 50, and my water and oil temps were rock solid. (Oil just pushing above 100C)

The only cars that I had to get out of the way for was an Integra Type R and a couple of race-prepped P-cars. I even managed to lap the NSX once! It was a really good day!


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Okay, kids, gather round. This is important: we spend lots of money for our car, lot of money modifying and taking care of it, lots of effort and pride in owning it. So if someone comes along and proposes to give you something that would increase your enjoyment in driving by exponential measures and it would only cost you two or three bucks per tank of gas, would you be suspicious like the 100MPG carburetors? Would you listen long enough to real-life testimonies to consider this improvement for yourself?
Well, this is the case for Toluene and what it can do for your V8Q if you been using anything less than 92+ octane. Get some.Try it. No harm, no risk. Use about 24-32 ounces per 1/2 to full tank. You will not look debonair. You will have to suspend your "cool" look. You may want to try this alone. YOU WILL HAVE THE SHITTEST, MOST PLASTER, GRIN ON YOUR FACE YOU HAVE EVER HAD! It won't come off. You'll tell the kids, daddy has his own "transformer". It will be like a new car...no, better than new!
I took my family out to dinner tonight and could hardly keep from dropping it into manual and showing off like some teenager (I don't think my 17 year old daughter was inpressed). I wanna see some posts here with personal experiences by you guys using this stuff - I wanna know that my car is normal and hasn't been deprived ever since I've owned it.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I did the Rocket Fuel thing tonight on my Extremely Modified 5KCSTQ that runs 24 PSI of boost... And I can tell you not only does my ears and my butt say that the Rocket fuel is doing it's job but My ECU Data logger that gives me the timing value for all 5 cyls says it's working too.
Before Rocket Fuel I was running full retard (14 Deg of timing) on boost and would still on occasion get some knock, now I'm getting timing numbers around 22 Deg's with ZERO knock ever. I'm running 2 Gallons of Toluene 7oz of ATF and 17.5 gals of 93 oct gas for a net octane of 95.15. I'm next going to try 3 Gallons of Toluene (96.23 Octane) to see what timing numbers I get.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

After being convinced that my car was running below it potential - Owners manual recommends octane rating between 95 and 99, although it_will_run on octane as low as 91 - I stopped by Sherwin Williams and picked up a gallon. It was on sale for $5.85! Anyway, head to the chevron and pour a half gallon into the tank before pumping in the premium. The car took 16 gallons so there was still 4 gallons in the tank. I take off....nothing (obviously burning the fuel still in the lines). About 10 miles later, HOLY SH*****T!!!!!!!!!! It really does everything advertised by the list. It is so much more responsive from a stop and low speed, it really is impressive. I would agree with the sentiment that it feels like a totally different car.
For the non believers, you really should try to get some higher octane fuel in your tank, whether through the use of Toluene or not. The owners manual recommends 95 to 99 octane** for optimal performance. With the half gallon of Toluene I added to the 92 octane, I was only running at approximately 92.6 octane and the difference was simply amazing!

If you haven't tried it, do yourself a favor and give it a whirl - I swear you'll be impressed.

(**note: this person confused RON octane mentioned in the owners manual with R+M/2 octane that is sold in the pump. 95-99 RON is roughly equivalent to 91-94 R+M/2)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

After trying rocket fuel for two weeks, I can only say I love it.
The first tank, however, was a disappointment. I think I did not add enough of rocket fuel for the first tank. So I added a little more for my second tank, it ran better but not too much improvement. Then on my 3rd tank, what a difference, the car feels like a "Rocket" now, even though it is an "Auto". I always feel there is more power available for me.

I think for my 1st and 2nd tank, I did not have enough rocket fuel in it, even though I added one gallon per tank. Then, on my 3rd tank, I had enough because of the left overs from my 1st and 2nd tank. (I fill up my tank at about the 1/4 mark). Now I only have about 2 gallons of rocket fuel left, I better get more now!!!


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Reference materials:


1. Gasoline FAQ

2. McLaren Honda Turbo - a technical appraisal
Ian Bamsey
ISBN 0-85429-840-1, published 1990



[ This Message was edited by: Rick MacLaren on 2002-05-31 05:19 ]
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John H  
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PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2002 11:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

See my reply in the Shell Toluene discussion.

I've used Toluol or Toluene (depends where you come from and who sells it as to what's it's called) since 1987 when I brought my GT replica - I've had no problems with it eating rubber.
The only problem with it eating rubber is if you take the concenration too high and the rubber used is not specifical designed for fuel systems.
Toluene was normally added when unleaded fuel was introduced to increase the octane rating caused by the removal of the lead.
In NZ we have 92, 96 and now in some areas 98 octane unleaded gas (plus 102 aviation fuel - for racing only) versus the 92 octane that you guys have in USA. In order to get the octane rating the oil companies added toluene plus other aromatics to get the rating. Initally (in NZ) the toluene was probably higher than 40% but has now been voluntairly reduced to a maximum of 40%. We have very little problems with the toluene eating rubber - the problems at the introduction were mostly confined to the use of rubber products not designed for fuel systems.

If you add toluene you must be careful and be aware of it's corrosive attitude to certain rubber and ensure you only use rubber products designed for use with fuel systems and carry out regular checks to ensure there are no leaks etc.

I support Rick on this one rather than gohim.


[ This Message was edited by: John H on 2002-05-31 10:25 ]
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gohim  
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PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2002 1:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tolulene is not legal to add to the fuel system of cars that are street driven, as it is not taxed, and not tested an over the counter gas additive.

Tolulene is toxic, and while an informed person may take precautions to protect himself. uninformed persons, and people passing by may be affected by the exhaust emissions and vapors.

Tolulene affects the nervous system in adults, and causes birth defects, that is know for a fact. Tolulene is being removed from fuels in the US for that reason.

According to the information rick reprinted from the "Shell" Website, Tolulene is an ideal octane raiser for gasiline because of it's low volatility, and the same article cautions against inhaling it. Where do you think that most of the spilled Tolulene goes, if it doesn't readily vaporize?

Tolulene contaminates the water supply, and is presents in over half of the sites targeted by the EPA as Superfund cleanup sites, that is printed in the information reprinted by rick.

While Tolulene may boost engine performance, it is not acceptable from a health and environmental risk standpoint. It is no more acceptable than: Lead, MBTE, Tobacco, Benzene, or Radon Gas.

Just because Tolulene once composed a measurable fraction of the chemical components that make up gasoline, doesn't make it acceptable in a larger percentage. Lead was once a measurable component of gasoline, would you argue that lead in the air, and water supply, is a good thing, because it was once used in gas? Carnuba Wax is a component of many medications (pills and caplets), does that mean that it is ok to eat car wax? Check out the contents of your medicine cabinet.

If Tolulene is an acceptable risk, then R12 should never have been banned, because it poses a lesser risk than Tolulene.

[ This Message was edited by: gohim on 2002-05-31 12:35 ]
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wdb  
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PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2002 3:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

just a comment on the ozone, r12 issue mentioned. atmospheric scientist have tried for 10 years to reproduce the so-called destructive effects of r12 on ozone, and have not been able to do so. using advanced vacuum chambers to reproduce the low pressures at the altitude where ozone is, they filled the chamber with ozone and r12 and nothing happened, then added high levels of UV radiation, and nothing happened, then added low levels of gamma rays to simulate the upper atmosphere and nothing happened. there are 2 main sources of ozone, burning fossil fuels and decomposing plant matter ( rotting trees,leaves etc.) none of which is present in any significant amount in ant-artica where the hole in the ozone resides. ozone is a gas, it dissipates, becomes less consintrated as it drifts from its source, like smoke. its in heavy consintrations and detectable over areas where there is abundant production, where trees, grass and other plants live. and diluted and undetectable where there is no measurable production, ant-artica. the argument is that in the upper atmosphere the high levels of UV radiation break down the cloro- florocarbins (sp)molecule into clorine and florine molecules, and the clorine molecule is what is supposed to be causing the destruction of the ozone layer. uuuuhhhh..., why not ban clorine. the world uses trillions of gallons of the stuff to sterilize tap water, swimming pools,wash clothes, not to mention the trillions of gallons used in industrial processes. the chemical companies were eager to ban r12, the patents ran out decades ago,many companies were making it and it was cheap, so if they develope a new patentable compound they can sell it for $500.oo for 30 galons and make a killing.
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John H  
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PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2002 3:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Listen guys - I think we've debated the pro's and cons of the product to death
Both sides have put the plus points for use and minus sides for its use - lets agree it can raise the octane but it's supposedly illegal to use.

I for one have had enough of this flame war between Rick and gohim. Of which you both are probably right. Rick was just raising the question of using the Toluene while you (gohim) were taking a pot shot at Rick for making a suggestion.

I think there is enough information for the average punter to make an informed choice as to whether of not to use the stuff.

Me, I'll still use it occassinally when I race but now we have access to 98 Octane here in NZ *and most race tracks also make 102 Octane available) I will have no further use for Toluene for road use and only rarely need it at a track.

[ This Message was edited by: John H on 2002-05-31 14:54 ]
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gohim  
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PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2002 5:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John,

I never took a "pot shot" specifically at rick. When he first posted about adding Tolulene to gas to increase performance, I wrote "This is a bad idea." I would have written the same thing the same way, regardless of who the poster was.

I never wrote that Tolulene would not boost engine performance. Any of a number of compounds will. The problem with using Tolulene and the other compounds is the damage, and danger, that it creates for living things and the environment.

A hundred years ago when it was discovered that lead could help engine performance, and help valves last longer, the people that produced gasoline, and the governments did not know that it could cause the damage that it does. After all, lead occurs in nature, and is everywhere. Now that we know more about the effects of lead and lead posioning, mmost lead has been eliminated from auto fuels in most countries.

I agree that R12 does not damage the environment, and is not the cause of damage to the ozone layer. How is something that is heavier than air, that sinks when discharged from a pressurized can, rise thousands of feet into the atmosphere, above the air that is lighter than it is? Since no one can prove that it is happening, I don't believe that it is.

If you check the history of the group of countries that banded together to outlaw R12, you will find Canada at the head of the list. Canada touts itself as a environmentally conscious country, yet it looks like they are not concerned about toxic chemicals that are already listed and regulated in the US, where R12 was produced long after it was removed from production in most other countries.

R12 is like the 55mph speed limit that the US citizens suffered for close to 25 years. It was suppose to save lives and conserve energy. What it did was waste valuable time worth uncalculated amounts of dollars to working people who spent their time on the freeway at 55 mph.

In the long run, the only people that have benefitted from the R12 production ban are the R12 manufacturers who are sitting on tons of the stuff (which is appreciating in value as time goes on), the R12 recyclers, the ac service equipment manufacturers, and the ac system service businesses.
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Rick MacLaren  
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PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2002 10:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

See my reply in the General Area to Vaughan's comments and request.

Regarding tolulene, my boss is a Ph.D. in chemistry, and his only reply was "Don't sniff it unless you want to get high, and try not to drink it - oh, and don't bathe in it". He just smiled.

Presently, I've tried 2 gallons of tolulene in my car and, to date, I have managed not to drink it. I restrained myself. The effects on octane were:

1. Removed hesitation that was occuring because I inadvertently allowed the pump guy put 90 octane in my car.

Note, my car was already bumped up to 8.0:1 compression despite being a car that should have had 7.5:1 compression. No side effects.

2. Plugs - excellent shape

3. Temperature - exhaust temperature significantly lower when the hood is lifted

4. Performance - it's like having an intercooler. And yes, I have an intercooler, so I know what that feels like. It was the smoothest tank of gas I've ever had. Was it worth the price? Yes and no. If I were racing someone, say, a 944 or 924S, I'd just dial in the boost controller to, say, 10 PSI and let her rip, and under those circumstances, the $10 a gallon (or thereabouts) would be totally well spent. On a very hot day? Yes, absolutely. On a cold day with no intercooler for daily driving? Not practical or economically reasonable.

5. Rubber - last night I removed the only rubber piece in my assembly that could get anywhere near fuel - the rubber O ring on the air intake above the turbo (see, oil sometimes can contain gasoline, small amounts, caused from too rich a mix - I'm not plagued by that problem but thought i would check to be safe - so that's really the only accessible rubber piece I could have a look at). I run my car rich. Had a look at the O ring, and there was no sponginess. I compared that to my other clean and new O ring, same story. No deterioration, by inspection.

I don't think it's worth tearing apart the car looking for deterioration of rubber. The stuff is so commonly used that, used wisely, it's a reasonable solution for a 931 owner who wants the benefits of higher octane without necessarily purchasing an intercooler. And for occasional use, excellent fuel.

No animals or small children were injured in this experiment.

Rick


[ This Message was edited by: Rick MacLaren on 2002-06-01 01:03 ]
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larso  
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2002 11:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gas is very toxic, so if we want to be safe, let's run our car's off water. What is the big thing about toluen that makes it more dangerous than gas? Some people get headaches when they go to a gas station to fill up their car. Gas fumes are cancerous. What's the difference between this and Toluene?

[ This Message was edited by: larso on 2002-06-04 10:18 ]
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Rick MacLaren  
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2002 12:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not much Lars.

Interesting. I was just at Evans Racing in Cambridge where a friend of mine soups up and races Hondas and Grand Nationals.

I mentioned tolulene and they don't use it in dragging as much as they used to because there's so much methanol and ethanol around. He also speculated that the issue with tolulene was that kids ended up sniffing it and getting high - the same hypothesis I proffered. But I'm sure there's more.

If you think tolulene is bad, (and it's not) then you should just break down any gasoline into its components and have a look. None of them are drinkable and you can't bathe in any of them. It's completely absurd to place the same standards of treatment and safety on gasoline additives that you place on substances you use to wash and drink. The fact that few in recent discussions seem to make this distinction is at once informative, and scary.

http://www.ott.doe.gov/rbep/pdfs/glossary.pdf

:smile:

[ This Message was edited by: Rick MacLaren on 2002-06-04 23:51 ]
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SandmanUtah  
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2002 2:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wait wait wait...you're telling me I can run my car on radon and water AND eat a can of that fine smelling car wax while I'm going down the road?? This changes everything!! Who needs to race souped up imports, I think I just found the garden of eden!!! LOL
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