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morghen
Joined: 21 Jan 2005 Posts: 8868 Location: Romania
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Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 12:05 am Post subject: |
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how much more until someone drops an email to Lotus or Cossworth asking propper details....maby they actualy have a head that could fit with minor modifications.. _________________ https://www.the924.com |
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Martijnus
Joined: 29 Dec 2006 Posts: 2019 Location: Netherlands
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Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 12:15 am Post subject: |
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ideola wrote: | ideola wrote: | fiat22turbo wrote: | I don't know of an easy way around that off-hand. |
Isn't there a method where the stud holes in the block can either be filled with an epoxy resin or welded up, and then new holes drilled & tapped?
I would think the bigger problem would be aligning water passages. |
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Water passages don't get stressed as much as the stud holes... those can be made wherever you like, but those stud holes need to withstand a lot of torque and stress. _________________ "Rule: Turbo's make torque, and torque makes fun." (C. Bell)
924 "50-jahre", 1981.
MSII/extra, LPG, ITB's, 5lug.
To be turbo'ed in a while.
Killed her at the Nurburgring, Porscheless at the moment |
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fiat22turbo
Joined: 18 Jan 2006 Posts: 4040 Location: Portland, OR
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Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 12:34 am Post subject: |
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I'll get some pictures by this weekend.
I don't think this is a good path to go down, swapping to a different motor would be easier at this point.
But for a purely theoretical discussion, let's have some fun. _________________ Stefan
1979 924 Carrera GTS (clone-ish)
1988 944 Turbo S (Silver Rose) |
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Martijnus
Joined: 29 Dec 2006 Posts: 2019 Location: Netherlands
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Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 12:36 am Post subject: |
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fiat22turbo wrote: | I'll get some pictures by this weekend.
I don't think this is a good path to go down, swapping to a different motor would be easier at this point.
But for a purely theoretical discussion, let's have some fun. |
I agree!
The 924 engine doesn't really have special powers that any other engine doesn't...
but it's fun to modify that base to the max _________________ "Rule: Turbo's make torque, and torque makes fun." (C. Bell)
924 "50-jahre", 1981.
MSII/extra, LPG, ITB's, 5lug.
To be turbo'ed in a while.
Killed her at the Nurburgring, Porscheless at the moment |
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Insane
Joined: 20 Jun 2009 Posts: 65 Location: Kyiv
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Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 1:01 am Post subject: |
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Martijnus wrote: | Any ideas how to overcome those head bolt holes? Those obviously don't align. |
need to compare scaled gaskets to understand. some may be weld and drilled on their new places. |
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gegge
Joined: 27 Jul 2007 Posts: 1124 Location: Sweden
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gegge
Joined: 27 Jul 2007 Posts: 1124 Location: Sweden
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Posted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 9:25 pm Post subject: |
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"The block and initial heads were designed by Hyundai. The final head design and CVVT system are based on an advanced Mercedes design from the E-class V6. Development was headed by Chrysler. The engine was in essence designed for boost and has received complaints about vibration and bad low range power in N/A applications. Mitsubishi's claims its Turbo 2.0 4B11 series is using different intake and exhaust manifolds, reconfigured ports, and Mitsu's own CVVT system. The heads feature electro-hydraulic variable valve timing on both the intake and exhaust side. The system was based on that used by the recent Mercedes-Benz 24-valve V6 and is quite sophisticated and expensive for a low-end engine. A variable tumble control system creates air tumbles in the intake runners at low rpms for better mixture. Valves are directly actuated by solid Bucket tappets. "
http://www.allpar.com/mopar/world-engine.html
http://www.gemaengine.com/
Chrysler Sebring
Chrysler Sebring Conv.
Dodge Avenger
Dodge Caliber
Dodge Journey
Jeep Compass
Jeep Patriot
Mitsubishi Outlander
Mitsubishi Lancer
Mitsubishi Lancer Evo
Mitsubishi Lancer Sportback (soon)
Mitsubishi Galant
Mitsubishi Delica (Japan)
Peugot 4007
Citroen C-Crosser
Hyundai Sonata
Hyundai Azera (Korea)
Hyundai Genesis Coupe
Hyundai Sante Fe
Hyundai Spectra
Hyundai Starex (Korea)
Kia Optima
Kia Sportage
Kia Sorrento _________________ Carl Fredrik Torkildsen
924 turbo -81 Carrera GT RESTOMOD
924 turbo -80 Dolomite De Luxe
924 -85 DP kit, BBS RS, M030 and tuned engine
924s -86 Black on black turbo with Fuchs |
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Martijnus
Joined: 29 Dec 2006 Posts: 2019 Location: Netherlands
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Posted: Sat Nov 28, 2009 2:11 am Post subject: |
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just wait a little while... then we're able to buy fiat's multi air technology as a bolt-on upgrade for your current head. At least, I read that was the goal.
And that technique is sooooo hot no need for throttle valves, so no restrictors, so thats 12% (thats a lot!) gain.
I really underestimated those Italians. Fiat developed the common rail techniques which are applied on most modern cars and the multi-air technology is a little further developed, based on that common rail technology.
Besides that, I don't think I want 16v. What's the real gain? Weird americans still use 8v and a freakin' single underlying camshaft for their 'performance' engines. Not that they're really efficient but 16v isn't really a magic trick to double power. _________________ "Rule: Turbo's make torque, and torque makes fun." (C. Bell)
924 "50-jahre", 1981.
MSII/extra, LPG, ITB's, 5lug.
To be turbo'ed in a while.
Killed her at the Nurburgring, Porscheless at the moment |
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Rocco R16V
Joined: 03 May 2009 Posts: 497 Location: PNW
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Posted: Sat Nov 28, 2009 2:50 pm Post subject: |
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is that fiat multiair like the bmw valvetronic in that it controls engine speed by valve lift and timing?
I thought everyone knew 16V's are magical _________________ "Government exists to protect us from each other. Where government has gone beyond its limits is in deciding to protect us from ourselves. "
Ronald Reagan |
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Martijnus
Joined: 29 Dec 2006 Posts: 2019 Location: Netherlands
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Posted: Sat Nov 28, 2009 8:30 pm Post subject: |
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Rocco R16V wrote: | is that fiat multiair like the bmw valvetronic in that it controls engine speed by valve lift and timing?
I thought everyone knew 16V's are magical |
yes it is, but the difference is that fiat can control it fully computerized, while BMW has mechanical control which limits the possiblities.
In short it works like this: A camshaft compresses air (or hydraulic fluid? probably air... fluids and compression is no fun) to 'store' energy for a short moment. The air can be released at the desired time, based on a computer signal, opening the valve. This controls timing obviously, but lift can be controlled too.
They even let the intake valve open twice, to get the best filling of the cylinder on low loads (to keep the air velocity high)
edit: found a youtube video about it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5IrPcmMHqHE _________________ "Rule: Turbo's make torque, and torque makes fun." (C. Bell)
924 "50-jahre", 1981.
MSII/extra, LPG, ITB's, 5lug.
To be turbo'ed in a while.
Killed her at the Nurburgring, Porscheless at the moment |
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mikebola
Joined: 07 Sep 2009 Posts: 361 Location: Parkside, PA
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Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 8:23 am Post subject: |
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Sorry for resurrecting a dead thread here, but a friend of mine who works in a local machine shop came to me yesterday and wants to try to stick a neon head on a 924 block. He is very convinced he can get it to work together all nice nice if he had the pics of the two head gaskets side-by-side. He was stalking the 'net and found this thread, and kept asking me questions, so I figured I'll just ask everyone on here directly.
I'm just going to measure up everything he'd need on my 924, since the head's off. But does anyone have a neon head gasket lying around?
ideola wrote: | fiat22turbo wrote: | I don't know of an easy way around that off-hand. |
Isn't there a method where the stud holes in the block can either be filled with an epoxy resin or welded up, and then new holes drilled & tapped?
I would think the bigger problem would be aligning water passages. | Yeah, he was thinking of blocking off the oil passages and filling the stud threads in the block, and routing the oil outside while keeping the water passages intact by porting them somehow. Don't know if that'll work, but it's not my idea!
Bottom line is if he can pull this off, he'll sell the whole thing to me for cost. If I get my hands on it, it'll be fully blueprinted, and those prints are going on here for all to see (and copy) _________________ proud owner of a 1979 924 Sebring Edition with a 931 trans that looks horrible but somehow runs... |
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flosho
Joined: 01 Jul 2004 Posts: 3155 Location: Eau Claire, Wisconsin
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Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 8:50 am Post subject: |
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Why not just purchase a neon head gasket from local autoparts store and then return it if its in a non-sealed package. _________________ [This Space For Rent] |
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mikebola
Joined: 07 Sep 2009 Posts: 361 Location: Parkside, PA
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Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 8:56 am Post subject: |
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that's a good point.... And I just realized that most gaskets have undercut holes for the oil and water passageways... At least, most cars I've worked on have tiny little holes in the gaskets, and larger holes in the head and block.
Looks like I need to find a block without a head at a yard to measure up the channels. _________________ proud owner of a 1979 924 Sebring Edition with a 931 trans that looks horrible but somehow runs... |
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Shurick
Joined: 15 May 2005 Posts: 524 Location: Russia, Moscow.
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Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 9:17 am Post subject: |
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Here's a picture that Cometic lists in the on-line catalog:
[img]http://cometic.com/generateImage.aspx?g=/domesticauto/26.gif[/img] _________________ WBR, Shurick
'79 931 -- intercooled K26-3060-6.10 turbo @ 1.2 bar, EFI+EDIS, 951S brakes, stripped interior, 951 look.
'86 924S -- R.I.P.
https://www.instagram.com/ru_pacecar/ |
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gegge
Joined: 27 Jul 2007 Posts: 1124 Location: Sweden
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Posted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 11:50 pm Post subject: |
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My best suggestion would be to swap the orignal VW block with a longitudional (VW) 6A block from Audi 80. I should line up with the transaxle. The 6A belongs to the same family as KR, PL, 9A and ABF. A shorter Audi I-5 engine with 2.0 liter displacement using a stroked crank.
Loads of aftermarket goodies. A short engine for good weight distribution. Cheap and reliable parts. A no-brainer?
Maybe a better idea to get the taller 2E block and the 95,5mm Z1 dieselcrank matched with a KR head and ABF cams to get 2042cc _________________ Carl Fredrik Torkildsen
924 turbo -81 Carrera GT RESTOMOD
924 turbo -80 Dolomite De Luxe
924 -85 DP kit, BBS RS, M030 and tuned engine
924s -86 Black on black turbo with Fuchs |
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