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16V head Q
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morghen  



Joined: 21 Jan 2005
Posts: 8868
Location: Romania

PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 12:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

how much more until someone drops an email to Lotus or Cossworth asking propper details....maby they actualy have a head that could fit with minor modifications..
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Martijnus  



Joined: 29 Dec 2006
Posts: 2019
Location: Netherlands

PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 12:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ideola wrote:
ideola wrote:
fiat22turbo wrote:
I don't know of an easy way around that off-hand.

Isn't there a method where the stud holes in the block can either be filled with an epoxy resin or welded up, and then new holes drilled & tapped?

I would think the bigger problem would be aligning water passages.


Water passages don't get stressed as much as the stud holes... those can be made wherever you like, but those stud holes need to withstand a lot of torque and stress.
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"Rule: Turbo's make torque, and torque makes fun." (C. Bell)

924 "50-jahre", 1981.
MSII/extra, LPG, ITB's, 5lug.
To be turbo'ed in a while.
Killed her at the Nurburgring, Porscheless at the moment
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fiat22turbo  



Joined: 18 Jan 2006
Posts: 4040
Location: Portland, OR

PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 12:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll get some pictures by this weekend.

I don't think this is a good path to go down, swapping to a different motor would be easier at this point.

But for a purely theoretical discussion, let's have some fun.
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1979 924 Carrera GTS (clone-ish)
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Martijnus  



Joined: 29 Dec 2006
Posts: 2019
Location: Netherlands

PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 12:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

fiat22turbo wrote:
I'll get some pictures by this weekend.

I don't think this is a good path to go down, swapping to a different motor would be easier at this point.

But for a purely theoretical discussion, let's have some fun.


I agree!
The 924 engine doesn't really have special powers that any other engine doesn't...

but it's fun to modify that base to the max
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"Rule: Turbo's make torque, and torque makes fun." (C. Bell)

924 "50-jahre", 1981.
MSII/extra, LPG, ITB's, 5lug.
To be turbo'ed in a while.
Killed her at the Nurburgring, Porscheless at the moment
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Insane  



Joined: 20 Jun 2009
Posts: 65
Location: Kyiv

PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 1:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Martijnus wrote:
Any ideas how to overcome those head bolt holes? Those obviously don't align.

need to compare scaled gaskets to understand. some may be weld and drilled on their new places.
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gegge  



Joined: 27 Jul 2007
Posts: 1124
Location: Sweden

PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 8:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why not use the head from the Mitsubishi Lancer X EVO?

Look for the 4B11T engine, developed by Hyundai and Chrysler (The world engine) with a bore pitch of 96mm

More details:
http://www.turbomagazine.com/tech/0806_turp_tomei_4b11_technical_report/index.html
And the gasket:
http://image.turbomagazine.com/f/9616390/turp_0805_26_z+tomei_4b11+metal_head_gasket.jpg

Since the block is opendeck, the bolts are a lot closer to the cylinder and might line up (better) with the 924 block.
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Carl Fredrik Torkildsen

924 turbo -81 Carrera GT RESTOMOD
924 turbo -80 Dolomite De Luxe
924 -85 DP kit, BBS RS, M030 and tuned engine
924s -86 Black on black turbo with Fuchs
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gegge  



Joined: 27 Jul 2007
Posts: 1124
Location: Sweden

PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 9:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"The block and initial heads were designed by Hyundai. The final head design and CVVT system are based on an advanced Mercedes design from the E-class V6. Development was headed by Chrysler. The engine was in essence designed for boost and has received complaints about vibration and bad low range power in N/A applications. Mitsubishi's claims its Turbo 2.0 4B11 series is using different intake and exhaust manifolds, reconfigured ports, and Mitsu's own CVVT system. The heads feature electro-hydraulic variable valve timing on both the intake and exhaust side. The system was based on that used by the recent Mercedes-Benz 24-valve V6 and is quite sophisticated and expensive for a low-end engine. A variable tumble control system creates air tumbles in the intake runners at low rpms for better mixture. Valves are directly actuated by solid Bucket tappets. "


http://www.allpar.com/mopar/world-engine.html
http://www.gemaengine.com/

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Carl Fredrik Torkildsen

924 turbo -81 Carrera GT RESTOMOD
924 turbo -80 Dolomite De Luxe
924 -85 DP kit, BBS RS, M030 and tuned engine
924s -86 Black on black turbo with Fuchs
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Martijnus  



Joined: 29 Dec 2006
Posts: 2019
Location: Netherlands

PostPosted: Sat Nov 28, 2009 2:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

just wait a little while... then we're able to buy fiat's multi air technology as a bolt-on upgrade for your current head. At least, I read that was the goal.

And that technique is sooooo hot no need for throttle valves, so no restrictors, so thats 12% (thats a lot!) gain.

I really underestimated those Italians. Fiat developed the common rail techniques which are applied on most modern cars and the multi-air technology is a little further developed, based on that common rail technology.

Besides that, I don't think I want 16v. What's the real gain? Weird americans still use 8v and a freakin' single underlying camshaft for their 'performance' engines. Not that they're really efficient but 16v isn't really a magic trick to double power.
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"Rule: Turbo's make torque, and torque makes fun." (C. Bell)

924 "50-jahre", 1981.
MSII/extra, LPG, ITB's, 5lug.
To be turbo'ed in a while.
Killed her at the Nurburgring, Porscheless at the moment
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Rocco R16V  



Joined: 03 May 2009
Posts: 497
Location: PNW

PostPosted: Sat Nov 28, 2009 2:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

is that fiat multiair like the bmw valvetronic in that it controls engine speed by valve lift and timing?

I thought everyone knew 16V's are magical
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Martijnus  



Joined: 29 Dec 2006
Posts: 2019
Location: Netherlands

PostPosted: Sat Nov 28, 2009 8:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rocco R16V wrote:
is that fiat multiair like the bmw valvetronic in that it controls engine speed by valve lift and timing?

I thought everyone knew 16V's are magical


yes it is, but the difference is that fiat can control it fully computerized, while BMW has mechanical control which limits the possiblities.

In short it works like this: A camshaft compresses air (or hydraulic fluid? probably air... fluids and compression is no fun) to 'store' energy for a short moment. The air can be released at the desired time, based on a computer signal, opening the valve. This controls timing obviously, but lift can be controlled too.

They even let the intake valve open twice, to get the best filling of the cylinder on low loads (to keep the air velocity high)


edit: found a youtube video about it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5IrPcmMHqHE
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"Rule: Turbo's make torque, and torque makes fun." (C. Bell)

924 "50-jahre", 1981.
MSII/extra, LPG, ITB's, 5lug.
To be turbo'ed in a while.
Killed her at the Nurburgring, Porscheless at the moment
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mikebola  



Joined: 07 Sep 2009
Posts: 361
Location: Parkside, PA

PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 8:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry for resurrecting a dead thread here, but a friend of mine who works in a local machine shop came to me yesterday and wants to try to stick a neon head on a 924 block. He is very convinced he can get it to work together all nice nice if he had the pics of the two head gaskets side-by-side. He was stalking the 'net and found this thread, and kept asking me questions, so I figured I'll just ask everyone on here directly.
I'm just going to measure up everything he'd need on my 924, since the head's off. But does anyone have a neon head gasket lying around?
ideola wrote:
fiat22turbo wrote:
I don't know of an easy way around that off-hand.

Isn't there a method where the stud holes in the block can either be filled with an epoxy resin or welded up, and then new holes drilled & tapped?

I would think the bigger problem would be aligning water passages.
Yeah, he was thinking of blocking off the oil passages and filling the stud threads in the block, and routing the oil outside while keeping the water passages intact by porting them somehow. Don't know if that'll work, but it's not my idea!

Bottom line is if he can pull this off, he'll sell the whole thing to me for cost. If I get my hands on it, it'll be fully blueprinted, and those prints are going on here for all to see (and copy)
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flosho  



Joined: 01 Jul 2004
Posts: 3155
Location: Eau Claire, Wisconsin

PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 8:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why not just purchase a neon head gasket from local autoparts store and then return it if its in a non-sealed package.
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mikebola  



Joined: 07 Sep 2009
Posts: 361
Location: Parkside, PA

PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 8:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

that's a good point.... And I just realized that most gaskets have undercut holes for the oil and water passageways... At least, most cars I've worked on have tiny little holes in the gaskets, and larger holes in the head and block.
Looks like I need to find a block without a head at a yard to measure up the channels.
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Shurick  



Joined: 15 May 2005
Posts: 524
Location: Russia, Moscow.

PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 9:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's a picture that Cometic lists in the on-line catalog:
[img]http://cometic.com/generateImage.aspx?g=/domesticauto/26.gif[/img]
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gegge  



Joined: 27 Jul 2007
Posts: 1124
Location: Sweden

PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 11:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My best suggestion would be to swap the orignal VW block with a longitudional (VW) 6A block from Audi 80. I should line up with the transaxle. The 6A belongs to the same family as KR, PL, 9A and ABF. A shorter Audi I-5 engine with 2.0 liter displacement using a stroked crank.

Loads of aftermarket goodies. A short engine for good weight distribution. Cheap and reliable parts. A no-brainer?

Maybe a better idea to get the taller 2E block and the 95,5mm Z1 dieselcrank matched with a KR head and ABF cams to get 2042cc
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Carl Fredrik Torkildsen

924 turbo -81 Carrera GT RESTOMOD
924 turbo -80 Dolomite De Luxe
924 -85 DP kit, BBS RS, M030 and tuned engine
924s -86 Black on black turbo with Fuchs
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