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Valve springs now NLA. Any interest in another group buy?
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RC  



Joined: 25 Mar 2007
Posts: 2612
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 3:18 pm    Post subject: Valve springs now NLA. Any interest in another group buy? Reply with quote

Well as Min mentioned in another thread, and possibly others as well as myself have discovered, the outer valve spring is now on the ever growing list of parts that are NLA. That means Porsche dealers CANT get them as there are NONE in GERMANY.

There`s enough SH ones floating around to keep the beaters running till they rust out. However for anyone doing a reliable rebuild and especially a performance or boosted one that is a major setback.

After a week of emails and searching the specs of literally hundreds of OE, replacement, and aftermarket, there is NO DIRECT REPLACEMENT. Some are harder, softer, bigger, smaller and can be made to fit with various modifications but none are identical. At the very least it takes a mixture of springs and shimming to even get close.

I`ve located a well priced set of aftermarket performance springs that I will be able to use satisfactorily with some extra work. The company that makes them can do small runs of custom, or in this case copied springs.

Is there sufficient interest to look into it?
As is always the case, price depends on quantity of scale. Their off the shelf springs are half the price of OE replacements were they available. I wouldn`t expect a custom run would cost more than genuine and with some interest we could have them much cheaper as a bonus.

At this time the inner spring is still available in Germany. No idea for how much longer. Give me some input here. Is it worthwhile investigating duplicating those to do as a set or just concentrate on the NLA outers.

Or forget the whole idea as no one cares, or wants to spend money anyway?
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leadfoot  



Joined: 11 Dec 2002
Posts: 2222
Location: gOLD cOAST Australia

PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 5:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can add rod bolts to that list.
Noticed this though from the empi catalogue
The big end journal would need to be turned down a little or offset ground.
The 5.5" length would suit a stroker.
The 5.7" or 144.7mm rods (stock 144mm) could suit as a replacement for stock.
There is also a 5.6" and all rods use arp rod bolts.
Stu
http://www.empius.com/2009_catalog/empi2009_pg7.html
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RC  



Joined: 25 Mar 2007
Posts: 2612
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 6:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ideola`s working on that one.

Been through the empi cat with a fine tooth comb lately. Bug pack too. All I`m sure about is the springs are unsuitable and too heavy for most of our cams.

Thinking about a SBC more and more.
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ideola  



Joined: 01 Oct 2004
Posts: 15427
Location: Woodstock IL

PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 10:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stu, rod bolts are taken care of, and should be delivered hopefully by the end of this month. I ordered a couple of extra sets, so if you need a set let me know.

RC, as for the springs, I am in for one complete set (maybe two depending on price). I would prefer inner & outer and to replace all as a matched set as opposed to combining from different sources.
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peterld  



Joined: 10 Dec 2006
Posts: 642
Location: Noosa Heads QLD Australia

PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2009 9:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Copy Dan on that. Nice work RC - keep us posted.
Cheers PLD
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Min  



Joined: 04 Nov 2002
Posts: 2365
Location: Vernon, British Columbia, Canada

PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2009 10:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I bought two sets of competition springs from EBS. They seem to work fine.

Min
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RC  



Joined: 25 Mar 2007
Posts: 2612
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 12:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Min wrote:
I bought two sets of competition springs from EBS. They seem to work fine.


So these are for a 2.0L 924 Min? You must know the specs, could you post them please?

EBS only list 924S/944 and 951 springs. And had nothing for the 924.

Troy Chapman wrote:
Quote:
Hello Roger:
Thank you for your e-mail.

currently i cannot locate any aftermarket competition springs

046 109 633 inner spring 4.25 ea

046 109 623 outer spring currently not available from Porsche


Thanks
Troy
Troy@ebsracing.com


After considerable measuring, calculations, and communications with Performance Springs there is now a direct replacement available for Au$100 for a full set of 8 inner and 8 outer springs, as a matched set. The manufacturer is Australia`s leading independent valve spring maker, supplying to the motor trade, engine builders and wholesale manufacturers for many of the "Name" brands of the performance aftermarket, who repackage the springs and triple the price.



A comparison between the old on the right (with green paint) and the new replacements on the left of the pic.



If you`re observant you will note that the free length is a fraction shorter and the inner a thicker wire. This results in the exact stock seat pressure (62 lbs) at the stock installed height (42.34mm) and the correct recommended open pressure (full cam lift) of 223Lbs as determined by the experts to additionally provide improved damping and reliability.

After testing every spring, old and new, multiple times found the consistency of the Performance springs to be exceptional, particularly compared to the wide tolerance of the old ones. Admittedly the OE springs were used but since they are NLA we will probably never know how close they were matched by Porsche. Was actually amazed by the +/- 1Lb tolerance (max 2 Lb variation) of the Performance ones, measured at both seat pressure and open pressure. Also was the proprietor of a specialist head machine shop who independently tested them on his calibrated machine. Which incidentally was surprisingly within a 1Lb reading of my scale set up. In addition this head shop said they have been using Performance springs for many years with no known failures at all, and highly recommended them before even knowing that I was dealing with them.

Even though there is very little interest in this thread I can post the individual measurements and recorded data if anyone seriously desires, also some more pics.

Verified all pressures again on the head after assembly. These were as consistent as my individual installed height tolerance could be maintained with the size shims I had available, giving a 0.2mm (0.008") maximum variation between highest and lowest. Another important factor for anyone running a very high lift cam or one with much heavier pressures is that the coil bind specification is significantly improved over the stock springs. Coil bind on stock is 26.8mm Vs 22.8mm for the Performance ones. Thats a whole 4mm difference which will allow a dramatic increase in spring pressure should it be desired.

These have been running with no problems at all, not that I expect any. Have revved up to over 7K on occasion, soft rev limit at 7K, stop at 7200. A 24 hour endurance test would be nice If I had the funds. Sure Porsche would have not run their stock springs at LeMans anyway. Was anything much stock?
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gegge  



Joined: 27 Jul 2007
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Location: Sweden

PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 1:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I donīt need them for the moment, but I think catching the opportunity is better than loose one
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ideola  



Joined: 01 Oct 2004
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Location: Woodstock IL

PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 1:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

How do we order these? Do you have a pointer to the supplier or contact info?
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15 981 GTS | 04 955 Turbo | 88 924S SE | 82 931 (x2) | 81 937 | 81 Euro 931 | 81 Weissach | 80 US 928 | 80 US 931 '941' | 80 US 931 | 80 931 GTR | 79 Sebring | 78 D-Prod (x2) | 78 Poli-Form | 78 Limited Edition | 77 Martini
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peterld  



Joined: 10 Dec 2006
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Location: Noosa Heads QLD Australia

PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 1:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice going RC....so how do we get them? PLD
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RC  



Joined: 25 Mar 2007
Posts: 2612
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 2:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

These springs are not a standard line but supplied to my dimensions and pressures, which happen to be same as Porsche`s at their stock specs. As no tooling was involved I understand that suitable inners and outers were combined to suit the requirement. As I have dealt with them previously at work for specific needs they were able to supply a single set for my evaluation. At the time I was hoping for more interest so as to obtain a better price. A custom run required 500 units to be economically viable. I asked if they can supply more single sets, which they could do for me at the same price. They only deal with trade and wholesale customers.

At the time I started this thread i could gauge that there was insufficient interest to even inquire about volumes and just concentrated on getting my own springs. There is no way I want to tie up any of my funds to be left holding a heap of springs. If there is interest in and money for at least 5 sets I should be able to receive some discount that can be passed on. May be able to have any Au orders shipped direct for courier cost but would have to be on one order and most likely they would all ship together.

As I also wish to make inquiries into what will surely be a custom run of retainers (for 7mm stems) I would much prefer to negotiate one bulk order. Depending on the demand over the weekend or so, will get definite price on the springs next week.

To clarify, these springs are direct replacements and will fit the stock seats and retainers, if used on stock 9mm stems. Special retainers, in chrome molly, are only needed for smaller stem valves, as in my other thread.

The price is Australian $ 100, ATM around US$64, and whatever the exchange rate is in, GBP 0.46, EUR 0.51, CAD 0.83............PLUS shipping (Au post) and paypal fees. Dont want to be out of pocket either with currency exchange. Think about what you want, if indeed anything at all.
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peterld  



Joined: 10 Dec 2006
Posts: 642
Location: Noosa Heads QLD Australia

PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 2:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Roger..... yes I want one set of stock specs (9mm stems). ie. inner and outer springs. PLD
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RC  



Joined: 25 Mar 2007
Posts: 2612
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 3:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Springs, you mean Pete?

With stock valves you can just use the stock retainers. Believe can get Holden or whatever 11/32" type molly retainers to fit 9mm too. Would be slightly lighter but no huge advantage.

Want to also use a set of these springs on a V2 head I`m planning with oversize valves and 7mm stems. Thats the only need for different retainers, to fit either Performance or stock springs but with smaller stems and suitable keepers.
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Min  



Joined: 04 Nov 2002
Posts: 2365
Location: Vernon, British Columbia, Canada

PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 3:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

RC wrote:
So these are for a 2.0L 924 Min? You must know the specs, could you post them please?


Yes, they were for a 2.0L 924. I don't know the spec's, I was looking for stock replacements, he said "all we've got are these competition ones this is the price" so, I bought a set. Later, on another motor, I bought another set. I could ask him to see if he knows the specs. They solved my valve floating issue, so I was happy. My stock springs were so weak I could fairly easily squish them with my fingers. The new ones, not a chance. I never tested them beyond that. I bought them back in 2005 and have been running them since.

Ok, I emailed troy to see if he knows the specifications.

Min
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Min  



Joined: 04 Nov 2002
Posts: 2365
Location: Vernon, British Columbia, Canada

PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 3:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

He doesn't know, the company they bought them from went out of business so he can no longer check.

Min
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