 |
924Board.org
Discussion Forum of 924.org
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Martijnus
Joined: 29 Dec 2006
Posts: 2019
Location: Netherlands
|
 Posted: Sun Oct 26, 2008 2:05 am Post subject: MS/EFI questions... |
 |
|
Today I hooked up my coolant stuff and let the engine run.
The problems I encountered:
- AFR gauge in megatune stays red, but goes white (to 14.80) when coolant is above 70 centigrade... I'm worried about the 14.8 because my analog gauge reads about 11. So I guess I have to fix the problem with the LC1 by setting it to generic wideband etc.
- Can't get the throttle bodies synchronized. I use a carb-tune set meant for motorcycles... but I don't read much vacuum.
MS reads about 90kpa. What do you read at idle (1000-1200rpm) for MAP? Just to see if I'm reading correct values... if it should be 50kpa I know I've got a problem somewhere.
I disconnected all the vacuum hoses while synchronizing, so that the other cylinders don't interfere... MS and fpr don't get any vacuum but it runs without... so wouldn't be a problem.
The sound from the tb's and filters is so wicked 
anyway... I assume you guys should have the same map reading as I have when idling...just need some confirmation.
I seriously haven't got any idea how to tune the fuel... I looked in the fuel table where it was idling and because it's way too rich (after warmup so WUE is OFF) but I'm not sure if I can burn it with the engine running...I did.... could be that 'bins' or something are messed up now.. .read something in the manual...
_________________
"Rule: Turbo's make torque, and torque makes fun." (C. Bell)
924 "50-jahre", 1981.
MSII/extra, LPG, ITB's, 5lug.
To be turbo'ed in a while.
Killed her at the Nurburgring, Porscheless at the moment  |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Min
Joined: 04 Nov 2002
Posts: 2368
Location: Vernon, British Columbia, Canada
|
| Posted: Sun Oct 26, 2008 2:16 am Post subject: Re: MS/EFI questions... |
|
|
| Martijnus wrote: | | - AFR gauge in megatune stays red, but goes white (to 14.80) when coolant is above 70 centigrade... I'm worried about the 14.8 because my analog gauge reads about 11. So I guess I have to fix the problem with the LC1 by setting it to generic wideband etc. |
Ya, you'll have to get that sorted out.
| Martijnus wrote: | - Can't get the throttle bodies synchronized. I use a carb-tune set meant for motorcycles... but I don't read much vacuum.
MS reads about 90kpa. What do you read at idle (1000-1200rpm) for MAP? Just to see if I'm reading correct values... if it should be 50kpa I know I've got a problem somewhere. |
From my understanding ITB will have this problem, my idle kpa is like 40kpa or so. Yours will be much higher due to the nature of your throttles.
| Martijnus wrote: | | anyway... I assume you guys should have the same map reading as I have when idling...just need some confirmation. |
Nope, we won't.
| Martijnus wrote: | | I seriously haven't got any idea how to tune the fuel... I looked in the fuel table where it was idling and because it's way too rich (after warmup so WUE is OFF) but I'm not sure if I can burn it with the engine running...I did.... could be that 'bins' or something are messed up now.. .read something in the manual... |
don't even attempt to tune it until you sort out your wideband readings.
Min
_________________
Custom means it didn't come from a box.
1980 n/a with EDIS and Megasquirt II Injection. 7 different colors and counting. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Martijnus
Joined: 29 Dec 2006
Posts: 2019
Location: Netherlands
|
| Posted: Sun Oct 26, 2008 2:32 am Post subject: |
|
|
thanks!
I've been searching again for those 'common' problems with MSII and the LC1, but can't find the threads on diyautotune, msefi or innovate forums
I guess you're way right with the kpa on throttle bodies, probably have to make it run right on seat of the pants... when the engine isn't stumbling anymore it runs as smooth as I can get it.
I also found out it's risky to burn AFR tables and stuff, but VE tables can be burned with running engine..so that's a worry less.
it's getting dark right now.. I'll try to get it running right tonight but I think I won't.
I've adjusted the butterflies on the eye to match them... that doesn't mean the vacuum will be the same, but it can't be off too much this way.
Still running on the MS-generated VE and AFR tables, but now with the TB's I guess they're way off... For idling it should be in the left-lower corner of the table...I'm in the left upper corner right now...
thing to keep in mind.
Prepare yourself Min, I'll be firing lot's of questions in the time coming up....
_________________
"Rule: Turbo's make torque, and torque makes fun." (C. Bell)
924 "50-jahre", 1981.
MSII/extra, LPG, ITB's, 5lug.
To be turbo'ed in a while.
Killed her at the Nurburgring, Porscheless at the moment |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Martijnus
Joined: 29 Dec 2006
Posts: 2019
Location: Netherlands
|
| Posted: Sun Oct 26, 2008 3:47 am Post subject: |
|
|
Fun's over for today.
Just tried to start the engine but it made a puff and after that nothing happened.
I looked at the MS unit whilst starting and it blinked just once in a while, so probably too low battery... ms not getting 12v etc etc.
I'll recharge the battery overnight and hope it starts tomorrow... it started today and when cold it should come alive. Only thing I did was change 2 cells in the VE table from 70 to 65. I'll regenerate a new VE table tomorrow, then I'll be at the same point I was earlier today.
Is a change of 5 in a VE table very much? didn't think about it when I changed it... if it would run terrible I could change it back.. but after I changed it nothing happened, but after a while (I guess there's some delay due to duty cycles or whatever) it started to run real crappy.
Tomorrow with the 'old unspoiled' table it should be right again. Tps at 5% worked best so it's at 5 again.
Hooked up the LC1 to my laptop, voltage curves are still there, so the problem lies in the LC1/MS combo I guess.... I'll go to generic wideband..if I can find that explanation posted here a while ago.
_________________
"Rule: Turbo's make torque, and torque makes fun." (C. Bell)
924 "50-jahre", 1981.
MSII/extra, LPG, ITB's, 5lug.
To be turbo'ed in a while.
Killed her at the Nurburgring, Porscheless at the moment |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
flosho
Joined: 01 Jul 2004
Posts: 3155
Location: Eau Claire, Wisconsin
|
| Posted: Sun Oct 26, 2008 8:30 am Post subject: |
|
|
I always had my battery on a charger plugged into the wall when I first tried to start and get the 924 to idle.
First thing I would do is go through and check the grounds, and make sure the grounds for megasquirt and the LC1 are on the same ground and solid. Then do the free air calibration to ensure it is reading correctly.
Idle with ITB is going to be a little work, with my car stock 931 intake, my idle kpa is about 45 kPa.
_________________
[This Space For Rent] |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Martijnus
Joined: 29 Dec 2006
Posts: 2019
Location: Netherlands
|
| Posted: Sun Oct 26, 2008 9:33 am Post subject: |
|
|
| flosho wrote: | I always had my battery on a charger plugged into the wall when I first tried to start and get the 924 to idle.
First thing I would do is go through and check the grounds, and make sure the grounds for megasquirt and the LC1 are on the same ground and solid. Then do the free air calibration to ensure it is reading correctly.
Idle with ITB is going to be a little work, with my car stock 931 intake, my idle kpa is about 45 kPa. |
I've got the charger almost permanent on my battery...but today it couldn't keep up 
The grounds from MS and the LC1 are soldered to the same connector, and connected directly on the negative battery pole. In theory this should be right.
Is there any way to check this...can't imagine my multimeter is accurate enough, but that's the only check I can think of.
Found the thread in which RC explains what's wrong with MS/LC1 combo:
http://www.924board.org/viewtopic.php?p=232650
What my strategy is:
Reprogram the LC1, 10 AFR = 1 volt, 20 AFR = 5 volt... (LM-1 style, not sure about these values)
Configure MS again, rechecking if I've got wideband sensor in my configurator, and then choose generic wideband with the above mentioned values. If I still get strange readings, the problem won't lie at MT or MS...
Or try to choose generic wideband and give the default LC1 values.
Let MS create AFR table and VE table, so my values are what they were.
Try to get it running again, try to synchronize the tb's again... maybe build a special tool for this but that's lots of work... hopefully get it idling a bit better.
What AFR do you guys have when idling (around 1000rpm)... I thought it would be 14.7, or even slightly leaner because there's no load... am I correct?
My afr table has 13.x in it... too rich imo.
_________________
"Rule: Turbo's make torque, and torque makes fun." (C. Bell)
924 "50-jahre", 1981.
MSII/extra, LPG, ITB's, 5lug.
To be turbo'ed in a while.
Killed her at the Nurburgring, Porscheless at the moment |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Min
Joined: 04 Nov 2002
Posts: 2368
Location: Vernon, British Columbia, Canada
|
| Posted: Sun Oct 26, 2008 9:35 am Post subject: |
|
|
Idle should be around 13.x
Min
_________________
Custom means it didn't come from a box.
1980 n/a with EDIS and Megasquirt II Injection. 7 different colors and counting. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Min
Joined: 04 Nov 2002
Posts: 2368
Location: Vernon, British Columbia, Canada
|
| Posted: Sun Oct 26, 2008 9:36 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | AutoTune will tend to do some strange stuff , don't expect it to create a perfect VE Table , it won't ,
but it will tell you where your Table needs to be richened-up and where it needs to be leaned-out .
1) First thing to do before you touch the VE Table is to Adjust your Required Fuel number
until you get around ~13.5 to 1 AFR , with a warmed-up engine at idle ,
2) Re-adjust your idle speed if necessary ,
3) double check your Trigger Offset number ,
4) Run AutoTune ,
5) Do not adjust anything else until you think you have a pretty good , smooth , VE Table . |
_________________
Custom means it didn't come from a box.
1980 n/a with EDIS and Megasquirt II Injection. 7 different colors and counting. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Martijnus
Joined: 29 Dec 2006
Posts: 2019
Location: Netherlands
|
| Posted: Sun Oct 26, 2008 9:43 am Post subject: |
|
|
thanks, I'll try to keep it at 13.5 then 
Just need to get that WB working and then tweek my VE table until I get the right afr.
edit: found out the LM-1 scale is 1V==10AFR, 2V==20AFR.
I guess this way I'm decreasing the resolution, but I reckon I can put any values in as long as it's between the limits (AFR 5-25, Volts 0-5) so I'll play with it a bit.
Ah darn... can't try it on MT until it's warmed up 
_________________
"Rule: Turbo's make torque, and torque makes fun." (C. Bell)
924 "50-jahre", 1981.
MSII/extra, LPG, ITB's, 5lug.
To be turbo'ed in a while.
Killed her at the Nurburgring, Porscheless at the moment |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Min
Joined: 04 Nov 2002
Posts: 2368
Location: Vernon, British Columbia, Canada
|
| Posted: Sun Oct 26, 2008 9:55 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Martijnus wrote: | thanks, I'll try to keep it at 13.5 then
Just need to get that WB working and then tweek my VE table until I get the right afr. |
| Quote: | First thing to do before you touch the VE Table is to Adjust your Required Fuel number
until you get around ~13.5 to 1 AFR , with a warmed-up engine at idle , |
Tweak your required fuel until you get 13.5 to 1, this will scale your entire VE table so it won't take as much work to get it tuned in properly. Don't muck with the VE table to change your idle afr.
Min
_________________
Custom means it didn't come from a box.
1980 n/a with EDIS and Megasquirt II Injection. 7 different colors and counting. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Martijnus
Joined: 29 Dec 2006
Posts: 2019
Location: Netherlands
|
| Posted: Sun Oct 26, 2008 10:04 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Min wrote: | | Martijnus wrote: | thanks, I'll try to keep it at 13.5 then
Just need to get that WB working and then tweek my VE table until I get the right afr. |
| Quote: | First thing to do before you touch the VE Table is to Adjust your Required Fuel number
until you get around ~13.5 to 1 AFR , with a warmed-up engine at idle , |
Tweak your required fuel until you get 13.5 to 1, this will scale your entire VE table so it won't take as much work to get it tuned in properly. Don't muck with the VE table to change your idle afr.
Min |
sorry, just pm'd you about that, but you've answered it already. 
got enough info to try tomorrow... now sleepytime..it's about 2AM now... the winter god gives me one hour extra sleep tonight but I want to get up early to wake up the neighborhood with some engine roars.
_________________
"Rule: Turbo's make torque, and torque makes fun." (C. Bell)
924 "50-jahre", 1981.
MSII/extra, LPG, ITB's, 5lug.
To be turbo'ed in a while.
Killed her at the Nurburgring, Porscheless at the moment |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
pocketscience
Joined: 23 Apr 2006
Posts: 1650
Location: Sydney, Australia... mate!
|
| Posted: Sun Oct 26, 2008 5:39 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Yeah, but did you read this bit on DIYAutoTune.com about reprogramming for 10-20 AFR?
| Quote: | For a long time we guided customers on how to re-program their LC-1 / LM-1 / LM-2 to output a slightly different signal from default. The goal of this was to increase the resolution of the signal in the range of AFR most users will spend their time in. What we had recommended was to program the output you were using to send a signal that represented a 10-20:1 AFR from 0-5v. While in theory this is great and does increase resolution a bit, in practice it's not really needed and is probably more trouble than it's worth for most users. The benefit of this is almost immeasurable, so going forward we recommend leaving the analog outputs on your LC-1 / LM-1 / LM-2 at their default settings. Then to configure your MegaSquirt to talk to your LC-1 / LM-1 / LM-2 do the following:
First in the MegaTune Configurator you need to select Innovate Default.
Then in the MegaTune EGO settings select 'wideband sensor'. Later you can come back and use the MegaManual to tune the rest of the settings on this page.
Lastly (and only for MS-II users, MS-I can skip this) you’ll want to go to TOOLS>Calibrate AFR Table and choose the Innovate Default setting and click OK, this will calibrate your MS2 to read the LC-1 / LM-1 / LM-2 properly.
|
_________________
Whoever said you can't buy happiness forgot about Porsche!
81 924 N/A, GTS lights, Saratoga, interior, headers, Integral cam, EFI (sold)
95 993
69 911 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Martijnus
Joined: 29 Dec 2006
Posts: 2019
Location: Netherlands
|
| Posted: Sun Oct 26, 2008 8:52 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| pocketscience wrote: |
Yeah, but did you read this bit on DIYAutoTune.com about reprogramming for 10-20 AFR?
| Quote: | For a long time we guided customers on how to re-program their LC-1 / LM-1 / LM-2 to output a slightly different signal from default. The goal of this was to increase the resolution of the signal in the range of AFR most users will spend their time in. What we had recommended was to program the output you were using to send a signal that represented a 10-20:1 AFR from 0-5v. While in theory this is great and does increase resolution a bit, in practice it's not really needed and is probably more trouble than it's worth for most users. The benefit of this is almost immeasurable, so going forward we recommend leaving the analog outputs on your LC-1 / LM-1 / LM-2 at their default settings. Then to configure your MegaSquirt to talk to your LC-1 / LM-1 / LM-2 do the following:
First in the MegaTune Configurator you need to select Innovate Default.
Then in the MegaTune EGO settings select 'wideband sensor'. Later you can come back and use the MegaManual to tune the rest of the settings on this page.
Lastly (and only for MS-II users, MS-I can skip this) you’ll want to go to TOOLS>Calibrate AFR Table and choose the Innovate Default setting and click OK, this will calibrate your MS2 to read the LC-1 / LM-1 / LM-2 properly.
|
|
I sure did... but there seems to be a problem in the code, which eric fahlgren acknowledges, with the setting for LC1. There are some slight differences causing wrong readings.
That's why I want to use generic wideband with other output programmed, not just to increase the resolution (what diyautotune says too... you don't really increase it..). But I need to make it work and with the default LC1 settings it won't work.
It's shite weather over here, not really happy with that because I'm working outside.
Luckily the laptop can be used a bit inside so I'll give it a go.
_________________
"Rule: Turbo's make torque, and torque makes fun." (C. Bell)
924 "50-jahre", 1981.
MSII/extra, LPG, ITB's, 5lug.
To be turbo'ed in a while.
Killed her at the Nurburgring, Porscheless at the moment |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Martijnus
Joined: 29 Dec 2006
Posts: 2019
Location: Netherlands
|
| Posted: Sun Oct 26, 2008 11:16 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Got the spark plugs out, were black and wet ... the wetness isn't that odd, I tried to start it right before and it didn't want to start.
I have reset the VE table to what it was with the specs from haynes, so that's back to what it was. Got all the vacuum lines back on so MS gets MAP again.
Chose generic wideband in MS and calibrated it to the standard LC-1 values, also changed the EGO settings, so now my wideband is active above 1000 rpm and above 10C coolant temp.
When I tried to start it ran for a few seconds but didn't want to idle at all, could be I have to give it some more air...but the battery is again too low so I'll wait a moment before trying again.
My AFR gauge in MS went to 15.00 AFR, with yellow background, but didn't change (could be I wasn't above the 1000 rpm threshold).
Is there ANY way I could check if the grounds are right? As I said, both MS and the LC1 are soldered to the same connector directly to the negative pole...
In the meanwhile i'll try to play a bit with the stim or something.
_________________
"Rule: Turbo's make torque, and torque makes fun." (C. Bell)
924 "50-jahre", 1981.
MSII/extra, LPG, ITB's, 5lug.
To be turbo'ed in a while.
Killed her at the Nurburgring, Porscheless at the moment |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Martijnus
Joined: 29 Dec 2006
Posts: 2019
Location: Netherlands
|
| Posted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 2:12 am Post subject: |
|
|
I give up...
Cleaned the spark plugs again, checked the spark, checked the ignition distributor, rotor is at the mark... after that it ran for a few seconds and died out very quickly...wouldn't start after that.
I'm using completely the same settings as I did when I first started it up and then it ran just fine (way better than now).
So MS-wise nothing has changed...
I now suspect something mechanically is wrong or something... the cam gear is still fine, no problems there.
If the weather's right this week I'll change the spark plugs but I don't think I'll get it running 
Hooked up my stim just now, and as long as there's rpm I can read the AFR/O2... but my LC1 just keeps at one value, while my analog gauge is flipping out while cranking (from rich to lean, which isn't that odd...)
Hope I can get it running again and measure the LC-1's output with my multimeter... should be able to find out something...
but it's still strange that it ran good, and now it won't start at all.
_________________
"Rule: Turbo's make torque, and torque makes fun." (C. Bell)
924 "50-jahre", 1981.
MSII/extra, LPG, ITB's, 5lug.
To be turbo'ed in a while.
Killed her at the Nurburgring, Porscheless at the moment |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
924 FAQ (Technical)
