Show full size 924Board.org
Discussion Forum of 924.org
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 
 Technical FAQ924 FAQ (Technical)   Technical924 Technical Section   Jump to 924.org924.org   Jump to PCA 924 Registry924 Registry

Official Main Bearing Cross Reference Guide
Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    924Board.org Forum Index -> General Discussions
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
ideola  



Joined: 01 Oct 2004
Posts: 15318
Location: Woodstock IL

PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2008 11:42 am    Post subject: Official Main Bearing Cross Reference Guide Reply with quote

OK, I'm going to attempt to start re-documenting all of the main bearing cross reference info I dug up a while ago. It may take me a while, but given the shortage of these worldwide, I think it'll be worth the effort.

KOLBENSCHMIDT
For starters, Kolbenschmidt seem to be the OEM replacements. I have two NIB STD sets, both marked as being for the 924, but with slightly different part numbers.

The first box is from Germany and marked as follows:
059 198 451
-Auto-Union 1 Satz KW 87 973 600 Std.

The second box is from Canada and marked as follows:
046 198 451
HL 87 452 600 STD
suitable for AUDI/PORSCHE/VW
TYP 2LTR 4 ZYL
AB1976 H937/5

REPCO
Next, I have a set of Repco brand bearings. At first, I thought these were different from the Kolby's but upon inspection they appear to be identical. They are marked as follows:
5M1707-STD
to suite AUDI

The 5M number is the Repco part number, and we should be able to use it to key off of other bearing suppliers parts interchanges. Later on when I have more time, I'll go dig thru the bearing catalogs I had saved and see what I can recover from the research I had posted in the for sale section a while ago.
_________________
15 981 GTS | 04 955 Turbo | 88 924S SE | 82 931 (x2) | 81 937 | 81 Euro 931 | 81 Weissach | 80 US 928 | 80 US 931 '941' | 80 US 931 | 80 931 GTR | 79 Sebring | 78 D-Prod (x2) | 78 Poli-Form | 78 Limited Edition | 77 Martini
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Joes924Racer  



Joined: 03 Nov 2002
Posts: 11965
Location: Oregon, Denver Colorado native!

PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2008 12:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just installed the Kolbenschmidts OEM replacements last year.
_________________
1979 porsche 924 Na
1980 porsche Turbo 931GT Replica
Have u ever driven a turbo.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address
ideola  



Joined: 01 Oct 2004
Posts: 15318
Location: Woodstock IL

PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2008 9:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The next step is to identify other manufactures. Off the top of my head, I remember the following:
  • ACL (Australia)
  • Borg Warner (a.k.a. Vandervell)
  • Clevite
  • King
  • Glacier
  • Glyco
  • Repco
  • Vandervell (a.k.a. Borg Warner)
I know there are more, and I'm sure I'll dig them out eventually, but that's a good start.

Next is to identify other cars that might use the same bearings.
  • 1974-1976 Audi 100LS 2.0L (Engine: Audi 2000)
  • 1977-1978 AMC Gremlin and Concord (Engine: Audi 121)
  • 1979 Spirit and Jeep DJ5G (Postal Delivery) (Engine: Audi 121)
  • 1976- VW LT 28,31,35,40,45 (Engine: VW 2000)
I think there are a couple more of the Audi models that shared this block, but I know for sure the 100 did. There may also be a few more of the Renault models, but the Alliance was a joint venture between AMC and Renault, and it may have used the same 2.0L block that AMC licensed from Audi for the aforementioned Gremlin-Spirit-Concorde platform.
_________________
15 981 GTS | 04 955 Turbo | 88 924S SE | 82 931 (x2) | 81 937 | 81 Euro 931 | 81 Weissach | 80 US 928 | 80 US 931 '941' | 80 US 931 | 80 931 GTR | 79 Sebring | 78 D-Prod (x2) | 78 Poli-Form | 78 Limited Edition | 77 Martini


Last edited by ideola on Thu Oct 23, 2008 1:07 am; edited 14 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
924RACR  



Joined: 29 Jul 2001
Posts: 8000
Location: Royal Oak, MI, USA

PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2008 9:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kolbenschmidt are the brand that I've used in the past, in the racecar, and been quite happy with.
_________________
Vaughan Scott
Webmeister
'79 924 #77 ITB racecar
'82 931 Plat. Silver
#25 Hidari Firefly P2 sports prototype
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
ideola  



Joined: 01 Oct 2004
Posts: 15318
Location: Woodstock IL

PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2008 9:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just added Borg Warner / Vandervell, Glyco and Repco to the list above, and reorganized it in alphabetical order.

Also, here is the official Porsche info:
1977-1982 Porsche 924 2.0L, main bearing set, standard, 64mm, replacement, original part # 046-198-451
_________________
15 981 GTS | 04 955 Turbo | 88 924S SE | 82 931 (x2) | 81 937 | 81 Euro 931 | 81 Weissach | 80 US 928 | 80 US 931 '941' | 80 US 931 | 80 931 GTR | 79 Sebring | 78 D-Prod (x2) | 78 Poli-Form | 78 Limited Edition | 77 Martini
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ideola  



Joined: 01 Oct 2004
Posts: 15318
Location: Woodstock IL

PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2008 10:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, I just managed to dig out and piece together most of the info I had gathered earlier from a series of emails. Here we go with part numbers:

Porsche OEM Part Numbers
046 198 451 (64mm crank journals)
059 198 451 (60mm crank journals ... early cars ONLY)

ACL
5M1707 (appears to be the same as Repco) (60mm crank journals ... early cars ONLY)

Borg Warner (a.k.a. Vandervell)
VP 91336

Clevite
MS1433P & MS1433AL : 1977-82 Porsche 924 2.0L
MS1603AL : 1987 AMC Renault Alliance 2.0L
MS1035P : 1974-76 Audi 100LS 2.0L

King
MB5248AM (64mm crank journals)

Kolbenschmidt
A2010-26450

Glacier (Dana)
M5536SA

Glyco
H 937/5 (note that this is the same inscription as on my Canadian Kolbies) (64mm crank journals)

Repco
5M1707 (appears to be the same as ACL) (60mm crank journals)

Vandervell (a.k.a. Borg Warner)
VP 91336
The King parts interchange also lists VPM92582A
_________________
15 981 GTS | 04 955 Turbo | 88 924S SE | 82 931 (x2) | 81 937 | 81 Euro 931 | 81 Weissach | 80 US 928 | 80 US 931 '941' | 80 US 931 | 80 931 GTR | 79 Sebring | 78 D-Prod (x2) | 78 Poli-Form | 78 Limited Edition | 77 Martini


Last edited by ideola on Sat Nov 22, 2008 4:34 am; edited 4 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ideola  



Joined: 01 Oct 2004
Posts: 15318
Location: Woodstock IL

PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2008 10:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Downloads from King for parts interchange excel files:
http://www.king-bearings.com/mainp/download.asp

Based on that page, here are list of other potential bearing manufacturers to research:
  • Federal Mogul
  • NDG
  • Daido Metal
  • Taiho

_________________
15 981 GTS | 04 955 Turbo | 88 924S SE | 82 931 (x2) | 81 937 | 81 Euro 931 | 81 Weissach | 80 US 928 | 80 US 931 '941' | 80 US 931 | 80 931 GTR | 79 Sebring | 78 D-Prod (x2) | 78 Poli-Form | 78 Limited Edition | 77 Martini
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ideola  



Joined: 01 Oct 2004
Posts: 15318
Location: Woodstock IL

PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2008 11:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Possible unconfirmed interchangeable bearings:

1985-1987 Renault Alliance & Encore; 1987 Renault Alliance GTA
Engines: 105 Renault engine, 1700cc; 120 Renault engine, 2000cc (respectively)
Clevite: MS-1603AL
Federal Mogul: 7175M
Glacier: M5469SA
King: MB5180AM
Vandervell: VPM92455A

1976- Volkswagen LT 28,31,35,40,45
Engine: VW 2000
Clevite: MS-1035AL
Federal Mogul: 6830M
Glacier: M5285LC/M5534LC
Glyco: H 811/5
King: MB508AM & MB5248AM

1968- Audio 60 L/Variant; 1965- Audi 75/80; 1966- Audi Super 90, Audi 100; 1970- Audi 100
Engines: Audi 1500; Audi 1700; Audi 1800; Audi 1900 (respectively)
Clevite: MS-1035AL
Federal Mogul: 6830M
Glacier: M5285LC/M5534LC
Glyco: H 811/5
King: MB508AM
_________________
15 981 GTS | 04 955 Turbo | 88 924S SE | 82 931 (x2) | 81 937 | 81 Euro 931 | 81 Weissach | 80 US 928 | 80 US 931 '941' | 80 US 931 | 80 931 GTR | 79 Sebring | 78 D-Prod (x2) | 78 Poli-Form | 78 Limited Edition | 77 Martini
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ideola  



Joined: 01 Oct 2004
Posts: 15318
Location: Woodstock IL

PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 12:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

An interesting article related to the Audi 2.0L block:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMC_Engines#Audi.2FVW_121
Quote:
Audi/VW 121
The 121 cu in (2 L) was an advanced design overhead camshaft four-cylinder engine bought from Audi/Volkswagen 1977 through 1979. Though a small engine, its advanced design created reasonable power for its size and due to being an OHC engine, it had a high redline. This engine was also used in the Audi 100, Volkswagen LT van, and Porsche 924. The engine was built to AMC specs, which are different from Audi/VW/Porshe specifications. AMC used a carburetor and standard points ignition as well as slightly larger clearances.

The original deal was for AMC to buy the design, eventually moving manufacturing to the United States. American Motors bought a plant specifically to build the engine, but never sold enough to move complete manufacturing. The AMC engines were assembled in the U.S. from major castings supplied by VW, hence the different assembly clearances. As part of the agreement, AMC was not to use the VW or Audi names when referring to the engine. Everyone familiar with the design knew they were virtually identical, and the automotive press commonly referred to them as Audi or VW engines. VW/Audi/Porsche U.S. spec engines produced 110 hp (82 kW) in mid-1977; earlier models produced 95 hp (71 kW).
  • Bore x Stroke 3.41" x 3.32"
  • Compression Ratio 8.1:1
  • Horsepower (net) 80 hp (60 kW) @ 5,000 rpm
  • Torque (net) 105 lbft (142 Nm) @ 2,800 rpm
It was used in the AMC Gremlin, AMC Spirit, and AMC Concord, The only Jeep this engine was used in was the 1979 DJ5G (Postal delivery). In the DJ5G it was mated to a 3sp automatic transmisison. In manual shifted cars it was mated to a BorgWarner HR-1 4-speed transmission

_________________
15 981 GTS | 04 955 Turbo | 88 924S SE | 82 931 (x2) | 81 937 | 81 Euro 931 | 81 Weissach | 80 US 928 | 80 US 931 '941' | 80 US 931 | 80 931 GTR | 79 Sebring | 78 D-Prod (x2) | 78 Poli-Form | 78 Limited Edition | 77 Martini
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Rich H  



Joined: 10 Jun 2007
Posts: 2665
Location: Preston, Lancs, UK

PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 5:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

KOLBENSCHMIDT wrote:
Dear Rich,

thanks a lot for your interests in our products.

Unfortunately, this bearing is not in our range. It's out of production and not replaced by another part number.

Sorry.

Mit freundlichen Gren / best regards
MS Motor Service International GmbH

Maren Kloss
Customer Sales Service
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Telefon: +49 (0) 7139 / 93 76 - 2235
Fax: +49 (0) 7139 / 93 76 - 12235
eMail: maren.kloss@de.kspg.com

MS Motor Service International GmbH
Wilhelm-Maybach-Str. 14 - 18
74196 Neuenstadt, Germany
http:\\www.ms-motor-service.com

_________________
1994 Lotus Esprit S4 - Work in progress...
1980 Porsche 924 S2 DITC Turbo - Original spec
1978 Homo-Sapiens - Tired spec
1953 Landrover S1 - Pensioner Spec
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
kbaranek  



Joined: 03 Feb 2008
Posts: 10
Location: Hinesville, Georgia USA

PostPosted: Sat Nov 01, 2008 9:24 pm    Post subject: Main Bearings Reply with quote

So you say you have two sets of main bearings with diff part numbers?

That is because:

046 198 451 is for the 64mm mains
and
059 198 451 is for the 60mm mains.

They didn't make many engines with the 60mm mains I think just in 1976 for a few months. I have an XH, and XG, and an XK and all three engines have the 64mm.

Since you have both part numbers in hand, can you measure the Inside Diameter to verify this?

I got my info from two different parts catalogs.

I still need a set of the 64mm but not in a hurry and won't pay small fortune if you know where I can get a set I would appreciate it.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/24190004@N02/sets/72157608196899690/


The last picture of the engine in my kitchen is the orriginal one that came in a basket with the car when I bought it. All I needed was a set of main bearings to get it running. I've already had the head and block worked. Meanwhile there is an XK engine in the car now so not in a hurry to finish orriginal motor. Other problems exist like wanting to drive everyday.

Let me know about those two part numbers and the sizes.
_________________
Kerry G.

77 Porsche 924
9247210079
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ideola  



Joined: 01 Oct 2004
Posts: 15318
Location: Woodstock IL

PostPosted: Sat Nov 01, 2008 9:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aha, very interesting, now I'm going to have to measure all three sets. I'll see if I can do that later on today.
_________________
15 981 GTS | 04 955 Turbo | 88 924S SE | 82 931 (x2) | 81 937 | 81 Euro 931 | 81 Weissach | 80 US 928 | 80 US 931 '941' | 80 US 931 | 80 931 GTR | 79 Sebring | 78 D-Prod (x2) | 78 Poli-Form | 78 Limited Edition | 77 Martini
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ideola  



Joined: 01 Oct 2004
Posts: 15318
Location: Woodstock IL

PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 11:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I did confirm that three of my four sets are 60mm and NOT the 64mm sets. I need to go back now and re-evaluate all of the cross reference numbers, as this may greatly reduce the target list of possible interchanges

From this post: http://www.924board.org/viewtopic.php?t=27629
Quote:
I recently acquired one of the little hard copies of the Porsche 924 Technical Specifications Booklets. According to it, the earlier 60mm main journals were applicable to the following engines:
XK thru 003213, XH thru 000021, XF thru 000010

XK = Europe-ROW LHD (i.e. NOT UK or Australian RHD)
XH = USA, Canada
XF = California, Japan

Seems these bearings are very limited in applicability.

_________________
15 981 GTS | 04 955 Turbo | 88 924S SE | 82 931 (x2) | 81 937 | 81 Euro 931 | 81 Weissach | 80 US 928 | 80 US 931 '941' | 80 US 931 | 80 931 GTR | 79 Sebring | 78 D-Prod (x2) | 78 Poli-Form | 78 Limited Edition | 77 Martini
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
924guy  



Joined: 29 Dec 2003
Posts: 2091
Location: Port St. Lucie, FL

PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 12:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

the little book is an awesome resource, just a wealth of valuable basic info..

repair stage:
original- 64.00
stage 1- 63.75
stage 2- 63.50
stage 3- 63.25

max out of round (all) 0.03


were going to end up have to get this made i fear....and it will not be cheap
_________________
Eric
78 924
82 931 SE "smokey"
99' VehiCross
Y2K Honda Insight
http://www.cardomain.com/id/924Guy
Performance by Pasha
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
ideola  



Joined: 01 Oct 2004
Posts: 15318
Location: Woodstock IL

PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 12:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ACL indicated they would need a minimum order of 200 sets to consider doing a run. It's going to take a LOT of buying power to get that to happen.
_________________
15 981 GTS | 04 955 Turbo | 88 924S SE | 82 931 (x2) | 81 937 | 81 Euro 931 | 81 Weissach | 80 US 928 | 80 US 931 '941' | 80 US 931 | 80 931 GTR | 79 Sebring | 78 D-Prod (x2) | 78 Poli-Form | 78 Limited Edition | 77 Martini
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    924Board.org Forum Index -> General Discussions All times are GMT + 10 Hours
Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Page 1 of 4

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group