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Scorpio
Joined: 05 Jul 2007
Posts: 1957
Location: Brisbane, Australia
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 Posted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 1:25 pm Post subject: O - ringing the block ? |
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Should i get the block o-ringed while getting my engine work or is it a watse of money? Ive read all the posts here on it and theres different opinions so i thought ide throw out my specific situation
1) BAE turbo kit..(hoping to start with the RAJAY turbo then Garrett later on)
maximum boost probably 12 although 10 may be more applicable as a "high boost setting"
2) Stock NA rebuilt Euro engine with NA compression ratio
3) 951 intercooler
4) water/methanol injection
5) Stock CIS with two auxiliary fuel injectors, firing from about 3psi boost onwards
6) oil cooler 19 Row
7) will only run on BP ULTIMATE( 98 RON) fuel
So basically ive done everything i can (apart from EFI) to prevent detonation /keep engine cool. Will this be enough or should i o-ring?
Ive also read that you only need to O-ring on high boost i.e 12 + PSI
I know youre meant to go copper gaskets with an o ring..where would i get these and how much do they cost? Will a normal gasket work or is there a groove neded for the ring?..i have no idea 
I know raceboy is hitting 11+PSI boost on a stock engine with from what i understand original gaskets (although he is using EFI) and hasnt had problems
With all the cooling etc ive done is o-ringing Overkill ??
_________________
1979 NA
MS1..EFI..
GARRETT T25 TURBO
BILSTEIN SHOCKS
GT BASED CUSTOM BODYKIT
Brisbane , Australia
Think mean think fast
all youll see is
my Porsches Arse!!! |
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leadfoot
Joined: 11 Dec 2002
Posts: 2222
Location: gOLD cOAST Australia
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| Posted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 3:00 pm Post subject: |
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O ring will not stop detonation.
Better off getting head studs to maximise compression on the head gasket as you can get a more even distribution of torque due to the non stretch bolts and the finer pitch of thread. Get these Raceware in the USA from EBS. Great company to deal with, very helpful and quick to ship with excellent packaging.
I would stay away from water/meth injection as it could fail /run dry and you would be none the wiser... then kaboom.
Your going to get it dyno tuned so have the adjust advance accordingly and you should be right.
With the combo you are running there will be a point where maximum boost = maximum advance and a comprimise is made between less boost and running more advance.
I would spend a bit of time making sure all your ducting is flowing the most amount of air through the engine bay, extract all the hot air you can and maximise frontal area to all coolers, build air traps to force air through these.
If you have headers then look at wrapping these.
I would also look into fixing up the coolant crossover pipe. There has been alot of discussion on this already.
I would also consider removing the cermaic resistor inline with the thermo fans and running directly of the battery. You get about 30% more airflow from the fans this way.
Stu
_________________
1981 ROW 924 Turbo -
carbon fiber GT mish mash
LS1 conversion in progress... |
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Min
Joined: 04 Nov 2002
Posts: 2368
Location: Vernon, British Columbia, Canada
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| Posted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 3:18 pm Post subject: |
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if you have it all apart, may as well o-ring it while its out. But I agree with leadfoot on the head studs, get those either way.
I disagree on the meth/water injection though, its a simple thing to setup a light on your dash that comes on if your tank gets below half, and if your diligent about opening the hood and having a look, it would never become a problem.
Min
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Custom means it didn't come from a box.
1980 n/a with EDIS and Megasquirt II Injection. 7 different colors and counting. |
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tuurbo
Joined: 08 Aug 2007
Posts: 1446
Location: East Windsor, New Jersey
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| Posted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 4:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I would stay away from water/meth injection as it could fail /run dry and you would be none the wiser... then kaboom. |
I solved that problem by having the methanol tank in the hatch. When I fill up with gas, I peek into the hatch, look at the methanol, and every 4-6 fillups, I add MW50 (a misnomer actually but it's water, methanol and a drop or two of automatic transmission fluid). I have a 1 gallon can. I also have a level indicator light that goes on bright red if the methanol gets too low. But I never see it on.
$300, no piping, installs in an afternoon, no cutting the chassis, cools like you wouldn't believe, enhances the fuel mixture, cleans the combustion chamber,... Saab, Chrysler, Boeing, the US and German military all used it. I trust it. You just have to set up a system that fits with your habits.
If you install a little 1 litre can you're going to fill it up every 1-2 tanks of gas. If you install it under your hood you're going to have to flip the hood open to change it. It's a hassle. So install it where you can see it, right in the hatch - make it as unobtrusive as you want, just make it visible when you fill up the gas. And make the tank big enough so that you don't have to think about it.
Failure isn't a concern for me yet. It's really just a pump and a solenoid. It's no more likely to fail than a pump running fluid around a liquid intercooler core. They're probably the same pump. Mine is a 150 PSI pump - pretty reliable so far. But if it fails, I'd know it because there's a green light that comes on when the pump gets juice from the battery. If I don't see the green light, I don't push the car really hard.
In fact, I had my light fail once, I reached down to my left, felt the fluid line pulsing with the methanol heading to the engine, and that was enough to reassure me. I just had a bad connection to the light. Remember, they put these systems in WWII fighter aircraft where reliability at enhanced boost was a requirement - not rocket science.  
As far as 'kaboom' goes, sure you can blow up your car if methanol fails and you're at high boost. Or hydrolock it if you install the can above the nozzle. But the odds of kaboom increase with boost pressure regardless of how you're cooling the air, so it's wise with methanol or even an intercooler to push your boost to a level that suits your risk aversion and is within a safe margin for fuel. I'm boosting around at 10-12 PSI until I get some other things fixed. But thus far it's been a great ride. I like the car again.
_________________
1980 924 turbo, MSD, Meth. Inj, otherwise stock.
Last edited by tuurbo on Fri Oct 10, 2008 11:49 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Raceboy
Joined: 01 Mar 2004
Posts: 2327
Location: Estonia, Europe
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| Posted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 4:18 pm Post subject: |
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I would spend the money on efi bits rather than methanol. With efi you'll get rid of K-jetronic and all other "supporting" equipment to run your turbo system (additional injectors, methanol kit and mechanical ignition distributor.
_________________
'83 924 2.6 16v Turbo, 470hp
'67 911 2.4S hotrod
'90 944 S2 Cabriolet
'78 924 Carrera GT replica
'84 928 S, sold
'91 944 S2, sold
'82 924S/931 "Gulf", sold 
'84 924, turbocharged, sold.
http://www.facebook.com/vemsporsche |
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Scorpio
Joined: 05 Jul 2007
Posts: 1957
Location: Brisbane, Australia
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| Posted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 5:06 pm Post subject: |
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LEADFOOT
| Quote: | | Get these Raceware in the USA from EBS. Great company to deal with, very helpful and quick to ship with excellent packaging. |
do you have the link..i can only find ones for a 924s
BTW-- how on earth do you remove highly torqued studs from a 924 head ? it was hard enough doing it from above the lifters etc with a breaker bar and tork bit...whereas a stud im guessing youll need to somehoe torque using a wrench within the head?
| Quote: |
I would stay away from water/meth injection as it could fail /run dry and you would be none the wiser... then kaboom.
Your going to get it dyno tuned so have the adjust advance accordingly and you should be right. |
To be honest i was going to run the water methanol as an ADDITION to everything else as opposed to having it tuned with every thing else..hence ide run slightly rich at high boost.... my intention is to reduce intake air temps rather then supplement fuel..
| Quote: | With the combo you are running there will be a point where maximum boost = maximum advance and a comprimise is made between less boost and running more advance.
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Im not sure i get it leadfoot ?
| Quote: | | If you have headers then look at wrapping these. |
ceramic coating the bae manifold
MIN
| Quote: | | if you have it all apart, may as well o-ring it while its out |
I was thinking perhaps the $200 + price gaskets could be better spent?
whats the deal with gaskets when you o-ring?
TUURBO
| Quote: |
$300, no piping, installs in an afternoon, no cutting the chassis, cools like you wouldn't believe, enhances the fuel mixture, cleans the combustion chamber |
i was mainly looking at it for cooling and "steam cleaning" and its simple enough to setup...FINALLY A USE FOR THAT BIG ARSE WINDSHIELD WASHER TANK 
Its a weekend warrior not a daily driver so filling isnt an issue
| Quote: | | Or hydrolock it if you install the can above the nozzle |
I dont think this would be a problem with a solenoid valve( as long as its not far from the nozzle)
RACEBOY
sorry mate you got pink 
Ide love EFI but so far this car has sat around in my garage...and im giving a final hard push just to get it running..EFI would set me back a lot more time and money wise Oh and the water/methanol injection was for cooling more so then additional fuel
THANKS GUYS SORRY FOR THE MILLION QUESTIONS RECENTLY>>IM JUST GIVING THIS A STRONG PUSH TO GET DONE- ON A GOOD NOTE MY ENGINES BEING CLEANED AND MACHINED AS WE SPEAK
_________________
1979 NA
MS1..EFI..
GARRETT T25 TURBO
BILSTEIN SHOCKS
GT BASED CUSTOM BODYKIT
Brisbane , Australia
Think mean think fast
all youll see is
my Porsches Arse!!! |
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ideola
Joined: 01 Oct 2004
Posts: 15550
Location: Spring Lake MI
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| Posted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 8:12 pm Post subject: |
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Absolutely, o-ring the block. It's not that much and it's cheap insurance and good for peace of mind.
Regarding studs, instead of the Raceware studs, I'd suggest going with the ARP's we discovered not too long ago. They are direct fit replacements, about half the cost of the Raceware's, and much more serviceable due to the allen head, plus you can get them at ANY of the online race shop retailers, you might even be able to source them locally. Here's a recommended thread on the topic.
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erstwhile owner of just about every 924 variant ever made |
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Scorpio
Joined: 05 Jul 2007
Posts: 1957
Location: Brisbane, Australia
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| Posted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 8:22 pm Post subject: |
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IDEOLA
| Quote: |
Absolutely, o-ring the block. It's not that much and it's cheap insurance and good for peace of mind.
Regarding studs, instead of the Raceware studs, I'd suggest going with the ARP's we discovered not too long ago. They are direct fit replacements, about half the cost of the Raceware's, and much more serviceable due to the allen head, plus you can get them at ANY of the online race shop retailers, you might even be able to source them locally. Here's a recommended thread on the topic.
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I saw the ARb's on the ebs racing site...they the same size as the 924's ones?
also whats the deal with gaskets when you o-ring the block?
_________________
1979 NA
MS1..EFI..
GARRETT T25 TURBO
BILSTEIN SHOCKS
GT BASED CUSTOM BODYKIT
Brisbane , Australia
Think mean think fast
all youll see is
my Porsches Arse!!! |
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Peter_in_AU
Joined: 29 Jul 2001
Posts: 2743
Location: Sydney, Australia
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| Posted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 8:39 pm Post subject: |
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One of the really good advantages of o-ringing is that if you have a problem that would have blown your head gasket like an out-of-control overboost you save the gasket and melt your pistons and bend your rods.
O-ringing is for two types of people; those who know that loosing an engine is an acceptable risk and wankers.
O-rings are a last resort.
_________________
1979 924 (Gone to a better place)
1974 Lotus 7 S4 "Big Valve" Twin-cam (waiting)
1982 924 (As featured on Wikipedia)
Learn to love your multimeter and may the search be with you |
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ideola
Joined: 01 Oct 2004
Posts: 15550
Location: Spring Lake MI
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| Posted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 9:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Scorpio wrote: | | I saw the ARb's on the ebs racing site...they the same size as the 924's ones? |
EBS is an ARP distributor. I don't know if they stock these particular head studs, but they could probably get them. If I were you, though, I would find an Aussie-based ARP distributor because you can probably get them cheaper than ordering them from a US supplier and paying for the shipping. As a point of reference, I got mine from Summit Racing for $100 (list price there is $130 but I had a customer appreciation gift cert for $30 on any order over $100 )
| Scorpio wrote: | | also whats the deal with gaskets when you o-ring the block? |
The o-rings help the head gasket to seal better. I need to take pix of my o-ringed block, maybe I'll get to that over the weekend so you can see what it looks like.
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erstwhile owner of just about every 924 variant ever made |
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morghen
Joined: 21 Jan 2005
Posts: 9087
Location: Romania
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| Posted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 10:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Scorpio wrote: |
RACEBOY
sorry mate you got pink |
ahahahah good one !!!
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Supercharger and EFI kits
https://www.the924.com |
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gegge
Joined: 27 Jul 2007
Posts: 1124
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 11:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Peter_in_AU wrote: | One of the really good advantages of o-ringing is that if you have a problem that would have blown your head gasket like an out-of-control overboost you save the gasket and melt your pistons and bend your rods.
O-ringing is for two types of people; those who know that loosing an engine is an acceptable risk and wankers.
O-rings are a last resort. |
Agree!
If detonation or overboost is an issue, and I would prefere a blown gasket to a blown piston every day of the week.
Get a AFR+boost+knock indicators before even considering raising your boostlevel. APR is good enough and o-ring only if you got forged pistons and reaching for +300hp.
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Carl Fredrik Torkildsen
924 turbo -81 Carrera GT RESTOMOD
924 turbo -80 Dolomite De Luxe
924 -85 DP kit, BBS RS, M030 and tuned engine
924s -86 Black on black turbo with Fuchs |
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tuurbo
Joined: 08 Aug 2007
Posts: 1446
Location: East Windsor, New Jersey
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| Posted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 11:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Quote: | | Or hydrolock it if you install the can above the nozzle |
I dont think this would be a problem with a solenoid valve( as long as its not far from the nozzle) |
If you're using the windshield washer tank, you won't need a solenoid - you need the solenoid if the tank is above the nozzle. |
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Scorpio
Joined: 05 Jul 2007
Posts: 1957
Location: Brisbane, Australia
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| Posted: Sat Oct 11, 2008 12:36 am Post subject: |
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a solenoid is cheap insurance... in case the right side of the car sits on a kurb or something liftin the level of the tank higher
SEE my dilemna, two lines of thought with regards to the o-rings... whereas i dont have any experience whatsoever to know the difference and "do what i want"
maybe ill go the old faithful way and flip a coin
_________________
1979 NA
MS1..EFI..
GARRETT T25 TURBO
BILSTEIN SHOCKS
GT BASED CUSTOM BODYKIT
Brisbane , Australia
Think mean think fast
all youll see is
my Porsches Arse!!! |
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tuurbo
Joined: 08 Aug 2007
Posts: 1446
Location: East Windsor, New Jersey
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| Posted: Sat Oct 11, 2008 1:03 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | a solenoid is cheap insurance... in case the right side of the car sits on a kurb or something liftin the level of the tank higher |
Naw - the curb would have to be very high.
Solenoids are cheap so it's your call - I was just thinking that it's one less component that can fail. Whatever floats your boat. A solenoid also gives you the option of moving the tank. Trunk mount is best Scorp - the pumps can easily push the fluid. But you'll see.
Might want to consider using a nut and ferrule with (maybe) copper lines, that's the way I'm leaning - the next upgrade. A Home Depot solution $15.
_________________
1980 924 turbo, MSD, Meth. Inj, otherwise stock.
Last edited by tuurbo on Sat Oct 11, 2008 5:18 am; edited 1 time in total |
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924 FAQ (Technical)
