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Direct injection of Methanol and Water - 4 injectors

 
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tuurbo  



Joined: 09 Aug 2007
Posts: 1446
Location: East Windsor, New Jersey

PostPosted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 11:48 am    Post subject: Direct injection of Methanol and Water - 4 injectors Reply with quote

"As he strides past the machinery and test equipment in the MIT Sloan Automotive Laboratory, his usually reserved demeanor drops away. "An engine this size," he says, pointing out an ordinary-looking 2.4-liter midsize gasoline engine, "would be a rocket with our technology."

How to do it?

The links below are for some work at MIT. Unlike traditional alcohol injection that uses one injector, MIT is toying with 4 direct injectors spitting methanol (mix, whatever) into (I think) all four cylinders and timing it I think pretty precisely.

http://www.autobloggreen.com/2007/03/17/mit-experiments-with-turbocharged-direct-injected-ethanol-and/

http://www.technologyreview.com/Energy/18304/

"But Cohn and his colleagues found that if ethanol is introduced into the combustion chamber at just the right moment through the relatively new technology of direct injection, it keeps the temperature down, preventing spontaneous combustion. Similar approaches, some of which used water to cool the cylinder, had been tried before. But the combination of direct injection and ethanol, Cohn says, had much more dramatic results."

"When the MIT group first hatched its idea, Bromberg created a detailed computer model to estimate the effect of using ethanol to enable more turbo­charging and cylinder compression. The model showed that the technique could greatly increase the knock-free engine's torque and horsepower. Subsequent tests by Ford have shown results consistent with the MIT computer model's predictions. And since the new system would require relatively minor modifications to existing technologies, it could be ready soon. Ethanol Boosting Systems, a company the researchers have started in Cambridge, MA, is working to commercialize the technology. Cohn says that with an aggressive development program, the design could be in production vehicles as early as 2011."

So they're doing it for efficiency, and for horsepower. And it isn't a water/methanol injection like I've got it, they're injecting it directly into the air charge right at the end of the intake runner, I 'think'.

If so, would one want their direct injectors, based on just theory, to spit in the alcohol at the same time as the fuel injectors spit in gasoline? If so, you could use MS to control the timing of the spit, right? (i.e., I have to buy MS)

Or could these be 4 injectors that are on continually signaled with boost pressure? (i.e., I get to keep my CIS for now)

Thoughts?
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bruni  



Joined: 26 Jul 2008
Posts: 114
Location: South Africa

PostPosted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 11:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Direct injection goes into the combustion chamber like a diesel
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Min  



Joined: 04 Nov 2002
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Location: Vernon, British Columbia, Canada

PostPosted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 2:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ya, sounds like they are injecting it directly into the cylinders at the right time.

Min
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Raceboy  



Joined: 01 Mar 2004
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Location: Estonia, Europe

PostPosted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 6:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Min wrote:
ya, sounds like they are injecting it directly into the cylinders at the right time.

Min


And more than often couple of times per cycle.
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tuurbo  



Joined: 09 Aug 2007
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Location: East Windsor, New Jersey

PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 12:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok so the only way you're going to be able to get the kind of results desired is to use EFI and a digital ignition. And maybe drilling a hole into your block for the methanol injectors. Yeesh.
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bruni  



Joined: 26 Jul 2008
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 1:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Any of you guys checked out E85

http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/hrdp_0801_e85_ethanol_alternative_fuel/index.html

Looks very interesting for a high boost engine with EFI

what do you think?
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tuurbo  



Joined: 09 Aug 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 3:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah a lot of people are kicking this around on this site. I think Dan (Ideola) and a few others are interested in making their cars work with E85.

I have been using E10 gasohol, about 10% ethanol (not 'Up to 10% ethanol') which is about 94 octane. I've chugged a lot of ethanol into my tank when using Sunoco 94 to get close to E20 but without any problems or mishaps. I am not sure of the proportions but I ran the car a few years back through Missouri and Iowa in the hot summer and the car ran great. People tolerate my input on these matters but nobody really takes my own experimentation with ethanol E10 seriously for performance because it's just a cash saver to get 94 gas. I figure I can use gasohol without modifying my car, and I still benefit from the enhanced octane. That's the extent of it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasohol

I don't like the idea with E85 of having to use 25% more. I don't like the additional cost to ensure the gaskets and so on are up to the specs needed for E85. But of course I like the octane. I'm going to wait and see what others do here and learn from their mistakes. Then I might do something to make E85 run on my car. But I'm not a trailblazer unless I'm absolutely sure I wish to go in that direction and I see what fails on the cars of the trailblazers.

I think the advent and introduction of this fuel might make a lot of guys wish they hadn't done all that work with intercoolers and chopped up hoods and chassis. I think it might render these devices obsolete. I don't know enough about it though to say with confidence. Availability is also an issue.

It's a good thing. Maybe it's best to wait until the availability is widespread.
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