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Why hasn't the topic of phenolic spacers come up before???
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ideola  



Joined: 01 Oct 2004
Posts: 15548
Location: Spring Lake MI

PostPosted: Sat Oct 18, 2008 6:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just got back from a couple-hour discussion with the founder of MRT Direct. Mr. Scott Hoag is a pretty good friend, and was the project manager for the entire Mustang program at Ford up until 2003, when he left to start MRT. MRT develops high-end performance modifications including turbo, twin-turbo, and supercharger systems for many of the Ford products, including Mustangs, Fusions, Taurus, Edges, Taurus X, Lincoln MKX, and even some of the big turbo-diesels. I mention this to lend credibility to Mr. Hoag, as he is an engineer by trade, and is very active in developing for high-end automotive performance systems.

After about an hour long conversation on this topic, the gist of it is that Mr. Hoag essentially agrees with Bruni, that there is effectively very little benefit to be gained from phenolic insulators on modern fuel injected vehicles. He even went so far as to explain that an aluminum intake manifold WITH a spacer would eventually equalize at roughly the same temperature as WITHOUT a spacer, because the SAME amount of heat would eventually build up under the bonnet, and would heat up the manifold that way, if not thru direct conduction from the head. Essentially, the heat would have to be exchanged through some other process to get it out of the engine bay. He also agreed that the volume and velocity of charge air moving through the intake manifold would not allow for enough heat transfer to occur as to make any noticeable difference with or without an insulator.

So, unless anybody objects, I'm not going to pursue this any further, and I'm going to focus my "group buy" efforts elsewhere (rod bolts and maybe fuel rails and a few other things bouncing around in my head).

Bruni, sincere thanks for challenging us all on this. And for putting up with my stubbornness!!!
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bruni  



Joined: 26 Jul 2008
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Location: South Africa

PostPosted: Sat Oct 18, 2008 8:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pheeeew we got there in the end, it's difficult to discuss such a complex subject with short statements in this sort of forum, especially when the argument is so counterintuitive, thanks for the opportunity to contribute
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tuurbo  



Joined: 08 Aug 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 6:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Phenolic spacers have a lot about them that makes the claim tough to tease out - the material does prevent heat transfer, the intakes are colder.

You know it's kind of cool because there are a great many products out there that make some pretty interesting claims and you know nobody has the time and nobody is being paid to properly evaluate the empirical and other claims about $100 products. It's like there's a $100 ceiling. I think as long as someone is marketing a performance enhancing device that says it can deliver 1 HP then someone, somewhere, will pay $100 for it with little evaluation. It's like it just requires too much time and expertise to track down each one.

A good example is the KN filter. People have been questioning these things and their claims for all of my adult life, and still there's little mixed reviews and the money outlay is so small that in a way we've learned to just not care. I have one now for re-usability. But I don't use it. I use the paper one because I don't want grit in my engine. Still, we'll always look into a Show and Shine and find 3/4 of the guys are confident their KN filter delivers estimates between 1 and 5 HP. I still don't 'know' but I figure if they work as the manufacturer claims, then it's not filtering the air properly.

The electric supercharger is still running strong. I still don't have the knowledge needed to evaluate whether electric supercharging works. I just have had to ride the coattails of others who know this stuff and can refute it on paper. Which I think in this way is the best way to evaluate it.

Another one is ZMax. Mystery additive that costs (surprise!) $40 - doesn't promise HP but it promises durability - manufacturer has vague claims but little independent verification. I've stopped using it until I hear more. I trust Carrol Shelby to support good products, but he's making a buck off it too! How many chemical engineers can even start to evaluate it? You need a whole lab to do that! Or you've got to be real smart to show on paper why their product won't live up to the claim without knowing it's chemistry.

I wish there were more TV shows that reviewed some of this stuff...but who would sponsor them?
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bruni  



Joined: 26 Jul 2008
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 6:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A good rule of thumb is to look at what the manufacturers are doing, they are under huge pressure from governments and their own marketing departments to improve the efficiency of their engines. They have the time, money and resources to test all these gimmicks and believe me they do. If they find one that works they use it. The K&N filter is a classic example of good marketing overcoming common sense, K&N always talk about the better flow rates never the worse fitration, why would you want more crap in your engine but people keep buying them by the truck load. Try this put two filters in your car a K&N on top of a standard filter, run it for a few months and see how much crap is on the standard filter you will be surprised
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ideola  



Joined: 01 Oct 2004
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 9:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Manufacturers aren't always the best place to look, though. As Corky Bell repeatedly points out in his writings, manufacturers are under even more pressure to produce efficient cars efficiently (to turn a phrase), not necessarily to test and deploy performance enhancing features. That is precisely why there is a very robust cottage industry here in Detroit by the likes of Livernois, Roush, Saleen, Shelby, MRT, Holbrook, and a whole host of others that specialize in developing performance oriented mods. Those kind of shops and professional race teams are where the testing and innovation for performance are to be found. Studying cars like the Ford GT, the Lotus Elise/Exige, the top-end Porsches, the BMW M series, the Merc AMGs, etc. is another place. But looking at what makes it into street cars is not illuminating, in my opinion.
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tuurbo  



Joined: 08 Aug 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 10:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So auto manufacturers, spin off racing teams and others whose income relies on running high performance cars, and...you can always see what the geeks are making at MIT:

http://www.autobloggreen.com/2007/03/17/mit-experiments-with-turbocharged-direct-injected-ethanol-and/

http://www.technologyreview.com/Energy/18304/

"But Cohn and his colleagues found that if ethanol is introduced into the combustion chamber at just the right moment through the relatively new technology of direct injection, it keeps the temperature down, preventing spontaneous combustion. Similar approaches, some of which used water to cool the cylinder, had been tried before. But the combination of direct injection and ethanol, Cohn says, had much more dramatic results."

"When the MIT group first hatched its idea, Bromberg created a detailed computer model to estimate the effect of using ethanol to enable more turbo­charging and cylinder compression. The model showed that the technique could greatly increase the knock-free engine's torque and horsepower. Subsequent tests by Ford have shown results consistent with the MIT computer model's predictions. And since the new system would require relatively minor modifications to existing technologies, it could be ready soon. Ethanol Boosting Systems, a company the researchers have started in Cambridge, MA, is working to commercialize the technology. Cohn says that with an aggressive development program, the design could be in production vehicles as early as 2011."

So they're doing it for efficiency, and for horsepower. And it isn't a water/methanol injection like I've got it, they're injecting it directly into the air charge right at the end of the intake runner, I 'think'.

Either way, the advantage of Universities is that they won't charge you much and they'll be happy to talk about their results.
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bruni  



Joined: 26 Jul 2008
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 10:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I disagree (I do that a lot) many years ago there was some truth that racing and rallying improved the design of road cars but those days have long gone the majority of race and rally formula are so restricted that they offer little opportunity for innovation. I see very little difference between "efficient" and performance they are two sides of the same coin. I believe the real innovation is in the lower and mid-range market vehicles, (although I see even conservative Porsche are using direct injection) variable valve timing, direct injection, two stage turbo and supercharging, duel fuel, twin clutch preselect gearboxes, active aerodynamic aids, fly by wire throttle, active damping, electric power steering, low friction coatings, metal matrix composites, the list is endless what have any of the tuners developed, from what I'v seen it's just the same old mods, made easer because they can do a lot of it on the laptop, raise the rev limit, optimize timing and fueling for performance. or maybe they fit a set of headers hardly ground braking. You want to see something really interesting check out the VW twincharger engines
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ideola  



Joined: 01 Oct 2004
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 10:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is the nearly useless reply I got from Autospeed:

Julian Edgar of Autospeed wrote:
Dan,

As with any modification, if you don't believe it will be effective, don't do it!

As you have noted, the article was clearly sourced externally to AutoSpeed; we haven't ever done it to any of our cars and can't see ourselves doing so in the future.

That said, the article is still a very interesting one and we believe the
fundamental principle to be sound.

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tuurbo  



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 6:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I found it interesting that the CPS T200 temperature sensor couldn't be found. It could be my search skills, or...who knows?

When you test something, you clearly identify the testing equipment and that equipment should be available so others may run the same test.
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