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Why hasn't the topic of phenolic spacers come up before???
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ideola  



Joined: 01 Oct 2004
Posts: 15511
Location: Woodstock IL

PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 3:19 pm    Post subject: Why hasn't the topic of phenolic spacers come up before??? Reply with quote

Seems like a really good idea, especially on boosted applications. Also seems like it would be VERY easy to implement on our cars, as there is no need for a TB spacer, only the intake spacer. Added bonus is that they would be universal across the NA & Turbo cars.

Reading material:
http://www.autospeed.com/cms/A_110474/article.html

Any body else interested if I can find a manufacturer (I already have one in mind...)?
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Lizard  



Joined: 03 Nov 2002
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 4:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

keep in mind phenolic is VERY expensive.
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pocketscience  



Joined: 23 Apr 2006
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Location: Sydney, Australia... mate!

PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 5:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lizard wrote:
keep in mind phenolic is VERY expensive.


Quote:
Several companies, including Ford Motorsport, offer insulators for 5.0L Mustang owners as well as for carburetted applications - just look through a Summit Racing catalog!. The most common thicknesses are 3/8 -1 inch and prices are generally in the US$50-$60 range


Of course a custom job would be more it shouldn't be too unreasonable...

Put me down Dan!


G.
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ideola  



Joined: 01 Oct 2004
Posts: 15511
Location: Woodstock IL

PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 9:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know yet about the material in bulk, but the online prices for a COMPLETE kit seems to be between $50-$120 depending...some on the upper end include spacers for V setups (i.e. two manifold spacers, one for each side), plus multiple throttle bodies, plus multiple gaskets, plus extended studs or bolts. Doesn't seem cost-prohibitive to me, and based on the potential benefits seems worthwhile on a boosted car...
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gegge  



Joined: 27 Jul 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 10:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interested!

Might just be one of the best bang-for-the-buck ever!!

7hp and 17-29 deg Cels drop in temerature on a N/A small V6 indicates minimum the same on a turbo, probably a lot better since intake temperaturs on the turbo is way higher under boost!!!
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morghen  



Joined: 21 Jan 2005
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 10:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

if it drops the temps...i'm in too.
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924RACR  



Joined: 29 Jul 2001
Posts: 8115
Location: Royal Oak, MI, USA

PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 10:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ideola wrote:
I don't know yet about the material in bulk, but the online prices for a COMPLETE kit seems to be between $50-$120 depending...some on the upper end include spacers for V setups (i.e. two manifold spacers, one for each side), plus multiple throttle bodies, plus multiple gaskets, plus extended studs or bolts. Doesn't seem cost-prohibitive to me, and based on the potential benefits seems worthwhile on a boosted car...


We had this discussion, it's all about volume...

I would imagine that it'd be perhaps easier to do it in Delrin...
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ideola  



Joined: 01 Oct 2004
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Location: Woodstock IL

PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 10:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, I don't care so much if it's phenolic or Delrin, but the concept itself (that of a manifold insulator) seems to be pretty sound. Vaughan, I'll add this to the list, and we'll discuss on Saturday
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tuurbo  



Joined: 09 Aug 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 12:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good article!

Please count me in!

I have a question - here's a quote:

Quote:
Phenolics, with excellent insulating properties, high stiffness, and the ability to withstand 500+ degrees F (260 degrees C), are commonly chosen for similar applications. Additionally, the coefficient of thermal expansion of a phenolic is similar to that of aluminium, which helps to reduce sealing problems in this particular use.

When compared to the 0.025 inch steel gasket it replaces, a quarter inch thick phenolic insulator will conduct 200-1000 times less heat! Although the insulation benefits increase with thickness, inch (6.4mm) sheet was chosen because this is the thickest that can generally be used with stock mounting studs and bolts.


So what would be the ideal thickness for our purposes - and what's the advantage of the same studs? Why not just size up new studs to fit the spacer?

Also, can these spacers, if they're like an inch thick, be tapped? Could they hold a nozzle or injector? Or have I lost my bearings here?

Thanks!
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RC  



Joined: 25 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 1:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK Dan, I`ll be in for one now you`ve got the ball rolling.

Should be easy and realistically priced by having a small run done on a CNC router. Very common these days as most plastics shops and bigger sign shops have them, as well as some specialist light engineering shops catering for electronic manufacturers. They can scan a gasket and write the program from that. How many can you fit on a 8 x 4 sheet?

Studs are no problem at all. I made mine using a length of M8 threaded rod (booker rod, all thread) and a hacksaw. Looks great, won`t rust, and has a low coefficient of thermal conductivity.
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ideola  



Joined: 01 Oct 2004
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 1:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

RC wrote:
Should be easy and realistically priced by having a small run done on a CNC router. Very common these days as most plastics shops and bigger sign shops have them, as well as some specialist light engineering shops catering for electronic manufacturers. They can scan a gasket and write the program from that. How many can you fit on a 8 x 4 sheet?

Exactly what I was thinking.
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924aussie  



Joined: 02 Feb 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 1:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
has a low coefficient of thermal conductivity.



Sorry I am in Queensland , does that mean it doesnt get hot



Alan
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924guy  



Joined: 29 Dec 2003
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 1:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have considered this in the past, my ford probe responded very well to "pheno's" (at both the intake and tb) something I plan to investigate further down the road. I would think it would be fairly easy to determine if they would be worth the trouble by measuring the intake temp at the base of the manifold, then at the tb, have to see how much heat transfer were getting.

phono's generally reduce iat by 15 -40 degrees (depending on who you ask or what manufacture claims what.)
so id say a true iat reduction of of ten degrees or more would definitely be worth a bit of trouble, and we'd see a difference...
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RC  



Joined: 25 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 1:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Would dramatically reduce conducted heat but still be susceptible to radiated and absorbed heat being just below the hood in a hot engine bay. Would be worthwhile taking some measurements at the manifold and the ambient temp below the hood.

Forgot to mention before that I`m sure there is 2 different stud patterns, NA and turbo. IIRC there is about 5mm variation on some holes. Someone should compare gaskets if they have both. May require 2 templates/ programs or are you just looking at turbo ones? Possibly could look at a universal design using elongated slots?
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ideola  



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PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 1:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Now that you mention it, I think you're right about the different patterns. No matter, I have examples of both intakes sitting around, so we can either examine different designs, or a universal slotted design (good idea, btw!). I think the biggest factor here will be the material itself. Scanning a couple of different gaskets and doing the design work is a one-time effort, so I don't see that adding a tremendous amount to the overall cost.

If my assumptions turn out to be true (after discussing with a manufacturer), it shouldn't be a big stretch to look at versions for the 2.5L as well. From my research, no one else is offering this yet for that platform either (although I haven't been exhaustive in my searches, just preliminary indications). Expanding to the 2.5L crowd should help drive demand and reduce the overall piece price.
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