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Wide band verses standard O2?
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bruce76-924  



Joined: 22 Feb 2007
Posts: 105
Location: Bradford, England

PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2007 9:57 pm    Post subject: Wide band verses standard O2? Reply with quote

Guys,

Just sorting the wiring out on the car at the moment and decided this is the time to fit some sort of mixure guage. Is it worth the money for wideband O2 systems or is that only needed when mapping an efi engine? Will a standand O2 sensor and guage not give me enough info? Or am I missing something here?

Cheers, Bruce.
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Min  



Joined: 04 Nov 2002
Posts: 2368
Location: Vernon, British Columbia, Canada

PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2007 12:09 am    Post subject: Re: Wide band verses standard O2? Reply with quote

bruce76-924 wrote:
Guys,

Just sorting the wiring out on the car at the moment and decided this is the time to fit some sort of mixure guage. Is it worth the money for wideband O2 systems or is that only needed when mapping an efi engine? Will a standand O2 sensor and guage not give me enough info? Or am I missing something here?

Cheers, Bruce.


In my opinion, a narrowband o2 sensor is fairly useless except for tuning cruise conditions (which is what they are used for in oem situations) They give you two options ... rich, or lean ... A wideband will give you a much better look at whats actually going on with your motors fueling. I personally feel that a wideband would be worth it. Knowing what your motor is doing is half the battle. If you have a wideband and a AFR gauge on your dash someplace, if something goes wrong (like a dead fuelpump or something similiar) it will be pretty obvious right away. Becuase your numbers will start looking weird.

Min
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bruce76-924  



Joined: 22 Feb 2007
Posts: 105
Location: Bradford, England

PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2007 10:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Min,

I was pretty sure that was the way to go, but it's always better to hear from someone who's using it rather than someone trying to sell me it.

Cheers, Bruce.
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endwrench  



Joined: 07 Dec 2002
Posts: 1629
Location: Victor, Montana

PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2007 12:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you have no actual way of tuning (programmable EFI etc.) then a narrow band may be all you really need to monitor "rich or lean". I've never actually used a wide band so all I can say is a narrow band has served me pretty well so far.

Todd
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RC  



Joined: 25 Mar 2007
Posts: 2634
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2007 1:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Endwrench wrote:
Quote:
If you have no actual way of tuning (programmable EFI etc.) then a narrow band may be all you really need to monitor "rich or lean". I've never actually used a wide band so all I can say is a narrow band has served me pretty well so far.

Todd


Me too Todd. I`ll second that!

A WB sensor will be able to give a somewhat more accurate indication at the extremes of the rich/lean scale if thats a major concern.

I have been using a GM 4wire NB connected to an electronic microprocessor that "expands" the sensor output voltage and gives an analogue indication and a 3 digit digital AF reading. This gives a similar broad range accuracy to a WB sensor at a fraction of the price.

These are relative common in OZ as it was designed by Silicon Chip engineers and available in kit form for around $50.

Roger
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Min  



Joined: 04 Nov 2002
Posts: 2368
Location: Vernon, British Columbia, Canada

PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2007 2:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Do you have scientific data that proves its 'as accurate' as a wideband? ....
you use terms like 'somewhat' and 'similiar', buy a wideband instead of a bandaid. I can get a wideband controller for 161 dollars canadian. Not exactly a huge expense.

Min
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Raceboy  



Joined: 01 Mar 2004
Posts: 2318
Location: Estonia, Europe

PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2007 9:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry guys but NB is NOT a match to WB by any standards except for cruise/light load conditions like Min stated.

With NB you don't have any clue whether AFR is 10:1 or 13:1 because NB sensor shows "rich" below 14.2-14.3. Expanders and such are only a guess, not a real data.

But boy what a difference it makes going from AFR 10:1 to 12:1 in performance
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special-tool  



Joined: 08 Jul 2005
Posts: 64
Location: Bethel, Ct.

PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2007 10:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Raceboy wrote:
Sorry guys but NB is NOT a match to WB by any standards except for cruise/light load conditions like Min stated.

With NB you don't have any clue whether AFR is 10:1 or 13:1 because NB sensor shows "rich" below 14.2-14.3. Expanders and such are only a guess, not a real data.

But boy what a difference it makes going from AFR 10:1 to 12:1 in performance


True - there is no comparison.
A narrowband is a switch, if you are not a computer, you are not fast enough to use it like a wideband.
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endwrench  



Joined: 07 Dec 2002
Posts: 1629
Location: Victor, Montana

PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 3:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Never said it was "as good" as a WB, only saying you can still tune a lower performance engine with a NB. You guys like to quote all the crap put out by the makers of WB's and "tuners". The NB is still far better than the old days of reading spark plugs and "real racers" did it that way for decades.

I do not think you should be tuning a 500HP Twin Turbo Wiz Bang with an NB but with some commen sense it too could be tuned to acceptable performance without any O2 at all. Perfect? No.

The NB is just another tool that will only work if applied correctly. Same as the WB. I have read plenty of horror stories on the net about people melting there engines down while tuning with a WB because they didn't know what they were doing, had it hooked improperly, listened to bad advice, didn't calibrate properly, or just plain relied on the gauge rather than their own intuition.

With this said, I still plan to buy a WB and tune my car with it because I know it is better than a NB. When I do I will post my actual before (NB) A\F and after (WB) A\F . Just to see if I am anywhere near optimum after tuning with a NB wich I have done for 5 years on a boosted motor without actually melting it down

Todd
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Raceboy  



Joined: 01 Mar 2004
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Location: Estonia, Europe

PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 5:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
people melting there engines down while tuning with a WB because they didn't know what they were doing, had it hooked improperly, listened to bad advice, didn't calibrate properly, or just plain relied on the gauge rather than their own intuition.


Yes, and that's why one should not rely on plain sensors but combine the data (WB, EGT, EBP) from them and still read spark plugs. I read spark plaugs additionally and that tells pretty much all (what kind of mixture engine likes).

And of course you're not melting it down, but I bet there's some ponies hiding behind the securely rich mixture.
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Min  



Joined: 04 Nov 2002
Posts: 2368
Location: Vernon, British Columbia, Canada

PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 7:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

endwrench wrote:
Never said it was "as good" as a WB, only saying you can still tune a lower performance engine with a NB. You guys like to quote all the crap put out by the makers of WB's and "tuners". The NB is still far better than the old days of reading spark plugs and "real racers" did it that way for decades.


I know you didn't say it was 'as good' todd, RC implied it was using vague wording like 'similiar'. I havn't qouted anything from a wb maker, or 'tuners' .....

Keep in mind, I know a few 'real racers' who still like to do it the old way. They also seem to enjoy replacing pistons somewhat regularly. Gotta love carb'd roots blowers.

Min
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Min  



Joined: 04 Nov 2002
Posts: 2368
Location: Vernon, British Columbia, Canada

PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 7:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Raceboy wrote:
And of course you're not melting it down, but I bet there's some ponies hiding behind the securely rich mixture.


I definately agree with that, the first few times I tuned my motor, I used endwrenchs method of tuning using a narrowband. It tuned things just fine (read I didn't blow up my motor) However, When I installed a wideband later, and started tuning towards AFR targets using the wideband, my motor came alive. But on a 115hp motor, picking up even 5 hp is a good improvement, with your blower todd, if you picked up 5hp, who knows if you could even tell?

Min
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endwrench  



Joined: 07 Dec 2002
Posts: 1629
Location: Victor, Montana

PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 7:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmmm, sorry if I sounded a little cranky . I'm getting older and am beginning sound like the OLD guys I used humor as I listened to the stories of how they used to do it .

Min, I hope I am far enough off that I pick up 5-10% not HP!

Raceboy, I like the way you put that, atleast I am "securely rich" in aspect of my life

Todd
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Min  



Joined: 04 Nov 2002
Posts: 2368
Location: Vernon, British Columbia, Canada

PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 8:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

endwrench wrote:
Min, I hope I am far enough off that I pick up 5-10% not HP!


I think you will be impressed by how nicely wideband's work in general. But like Raceboy says, I wouldn't rely on it solely, EGT is important, TIT if you have a turbo, etc. I also personally rely on my fuel pressure gauge quite a bit. I've had 3 fuel pressure regulators die on me since i megasquirted my car (its what i get for buying junkyard fpr's) I bought a msd-2222 this time around, hopefully it works alot better, it seems to as far as diaphram response etc.

Min
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924RACR  



Joined: 29 Jul 2001
Posts: 8234
Location: Royal Oak, MI, USA

PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 11:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This cheap wideband reader has popped up recently...
http://14point7.com/JAW/JAW.htm
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