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EFI project I (building throttle mount to intake) (pictures)
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merruse  



Joined: 21 Feb 2007
Posts: 13
Location: Istanbul/Turkey

PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2007 4:35 am    Post subject: EFI project I (building throttle mount to intake) (pictures) Reply with quote

When i bought my 924 it does not starts. Some guy tries to convert it carb. But he can not. So at this point, i have two choise,
1st - try carb one more time,
2nd - EFI
I selected EFI. I will put in to MSII. So i have to do something about throttle. First of all i pullout everything about fuel system under the hood. Then I started to build a mount for my 65mm ford throttle.

















TPS is under the throttle. Cables are so far away from block.


I attached a mount for throttle cable.


This is my fist EFI project. Actually this is my first mechanic experience. I hope it will works .

Sorry for my bad english.
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Peter  



Joined: 04 Nov 2002
Posts: 379
Location: New York, NY

PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2007 5:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great job!

Keep us informed of your progress.
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Raceboy  



Joined: 01 Mar 2004
Posts: 2321
Location: Estonia, Europe

PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2007 5:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nicely done!

But I noticed pretty big opening inside the TB that is for idle valve, but if you won't connect the original one, you should close this hole, otherwise you'll end up with very high idle.
Or did you make the adapter so that it shuts it?
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'83 924 2.6 16v Turbo, 470hp
'67 911 2.4S hotrod
'90 944 S2 Cabriolet
'78 924 Carrera GT replica
'84 928 S
'91 944 S2, sold
'82 924S/931 "Gulf", sold
'84 924, turbocharged, sold.
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bruce76-924  



Joined: 22 Feb 2007
Posts: 105
Location: Bradford, England

PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2007 6:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Merruse,

Really nice job there. Looking forward to seeing more of it soon.

Cheers, Bruce.
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1976 924 LHD, full cage, semi tube chassis, 931 trans, 951 brakes, lightweight 951 body panels.
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merruse  



Joined: 21 Feb 2007
Posts: 13
Location: Istanbul/Turkey

PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2007 7:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

First of all, thanks everyone for encourage comments.
Raceboy wrote:
But I noticed pretty big opening inside the TB that is for idle valve, but if you won't connect the original one, you should close this hole, otherwise you'll end up with very high idle.
Or did you make the adapter so that it shuts it?

Yes it is for idle valve. But I already closed that on flange. I am planning to use oem 924 idle valve.
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Peter_in_AU  



Joined: 29 Jul 2001
Posts: 2742
Location: Sydney, Australia

PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2007 10:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very nice work. Did you do the welding yourself? They look beautiful.

Keep us updated.
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1979 924 (Gone to a better place)
1974 Lotus 7 S4 "Big Valve" Twin-cam (waiting)
1982 924 (As featured on Wikipedia)

Learn to love your multimeter and may the search be with you
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merruse  



Joined: 21 Feb 2007
Posts: 13
Location: Istanbul/Turkey

PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2007 3:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Peter_in_AU wrote:
Did you do the welding yourself?

My friend (who seens on pictures. He is fabricating the small boats on him workshop) cuted aluminium parts (plate and pipe), i measured and weld.
Actually this is my first time to use argon welding. But i see that, it is really similar with soldering. I am electronic engineer on "design and developement" department . So i have soldering experience.

thanks.
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RC  



Joined: 25 Mar 2007
Posts: 2634
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2007 11:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Merruse, thats a nice bit of work from a metal fabricator but considering you wrote
Quote:
Actually this is my first mechanic experience
its BLOODY BRILLIANT MATE! (pardon the aussie lingo)

It`s a big leap from changing your own sparkplugs. An engineering background in electronics obviously helps. I can fully understand why youre going EFI and specifically MS.

Since i`m going down the same road at the moment I`m curious as to why you decided to drastically modify the manifold in preference to easier options like fitting TPS on stock TB or the audi TB, or a simple adaptor if not a 931S2 manifold?

Please understand Im not being critical. I see that a lot of members here go to great lengths(at least for me) fabricating manifolds and am unsure of the benefits. I for one would really like to hear from those that have done it and see any quantitive evidence of performance improvement.

May your EFI project be successful Merruse and look forward to hearing more.

Cheers, Roger
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Min  



Joined: 04 Nov 2002
Posts: 2368
Location: Vernon, British Columbia, Canada

PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2007 3:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RC wrote:
Since i`m going down the same road at the moment I`m curious as to why you decided to drastically modify the manifold in preference to easier options like fitting TPS on stock TB or the audi TB, or a simple adaptor if not a 931S2 manifold?


If your using a rail like endwrenchs, you'll quickly find there isn't a whole lot of room between the throttlebody and the rail in a stock setup. Moving the throttle likes this allows you to use readily availible throttlebodies in various sizing, and makes it so your not crowding your fuel rail.

RC wrote:
Please understand Im not being critical. I see that a lot of members here go to great lengths(at least for me) fabricating manifolds and am unsure of the benefits. I for one would really like to hear from those that have done it and see any quantitive evidence of performance improvement.


There are many benifits to making your own complete manifold. First, you can change were the fuel injectors are spraying, and the angle. This will make tuning easier becuase you won't have to worry about fuel pooling and doing weird stuff which can effect your throttle tipin and your acceleration enrichment. If your building a complete manifold, there is proven flow increases to be had from doing something as simple as installing velocity stacks (proven 15-25 percent flow increases) It also allows you to change the size of your plenum for your application, and perhaps tune your runner length as well(in a turbo application you want a slightly larger plenum so that it acts as a 'surge' tank and suppresses pulsation in the intake system). There are also people who believe the head on the 924 may not be the entire problem with the 'restrictive head' people keep talking about, its quite possible its more of a 'restrictive intake system' thats cuasing the problem. If thats the case, simple replacing the manifold with one that has velocity stacks built in and porting the head to match would resolve this issue. It also gives you the chance to texture your entire intake system however you like (inducing turbulence or whatever) If your really into it this would also be the perfect oppurtunity to install individual throttle bodies which are supposed to improve throttle response. Lots of improvements to be had, if your interested in searching for it.

Min
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1980 n/a with EDIS and Megasquirt II Injection. 7 different colors and counting.
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Rasta Monsta  



Joined: 12 Jul 2006
Posts: 11378
Location: PacNW

PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2007 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Min wrote:
There are also people who believe the head on the 924 may not be the entire problem with the 'restrictive head' people keep talking about, its quite possible its more of a 'restrictive intake system' thats cuasing the problem.


If that were true, people would be getting a lot more out of Weber setups.
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merruse  



Joined: 21 Feb 2007
Posts: 13
Location: Istanbul/Turkey

PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2007 7:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RC wrote:
Since i`m going down the same road at the moment I`m curious as to why you decided to drastically modify the manifold in preference to easier options like fitting TPS on stock TB or the audi TB, or a simple adaptor if not a 931S2 manifold?

If you are planning to use MSEFI, you can not put TPS to oem 924 throtlle because of there is two different sized throttle on body. Amount of air get in to the engine is not lineer on double throttled intake systems. If you investigate TB of 924, you see that clearly.. First time small throttle openning, after half gas openning big throttle. So if you are planning to put an EFI system, you may be crazy when you configuring mappings. Actually if you are using an airflow sensor for measuring to air amount, theoretically you may use TPS with oem throttle. But it is useless. Double throttle systems design objective ise increasing fuel economy. You may adjust it with ECU mappings basicly.. Especially if you have a wideband O2 sensor. So i don't want to be a crazy for adjusting mappings.

If you can not measure amount of air, (MSEFI does not support to measuring air flow) you have to control it mechanicly. As much lineer, as much easier.
But i have to add that, when you use single throttle on intake, you loss torque impress little bit because of linearity. At the double throttle systems, when the second opened you feel that effectively.
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Min  



Joined: 04 Nov 2002
Posts: 2368
Location: Vernon, British Columbia, Canada

PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2007 5:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rasta Monsta wrote:
If that were true, people would be getting a lot more out of Weber setups.


Seen dyno sheets from a weber carbed motor? ... seen the AFR through the rpm range? .... ........ didn't think so. AFR is integral to how much power you make, even .5 afr can make a -huge- difference in how the car runs. I wouldn't trust a carb to give accurate AFR period. Oh and don't forget the guy claiming 150 whp with bike carbs.

Min
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1980 n/a with EDIS and Megasquirt II Injection. 7 different colors and counting.
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Min  



Joined: 04 Nov 2002
Posts: 2368
Location: Vernon, British Columbia, Canada

PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2007 5:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

merruse wrote:
(MSEFI does not support to measuring air flow)


Yes it does. MSEFI has supported MAF for quite a long time actually. MAF is how the guys running one cylinder jetski's and ATV's n'such get their setups running on MSEFI.

Min
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endwrench  



Joined: 07 Dec 2002
Posts: 1629
Location: Victor, Montana

PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2007 7:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

merruse wrote:
If you are planning to use MSEFI, you can not put TPS to oem 924 throtlle because of there is two different sized throttle on body. Amount of air get in to the engine is not lineer on double throttled intake systems. If you investigate TB of 924, you see that clearly.. First time small throttle openning, after half gas openning big throttle. So if you are planning to put an EFI system, you may be crazy when you configuring mappings. Actually if you are using an airflow sensor for measuring to air amount, theoretically you may use TPS with oem throttle. But it is useless. Double throttle systems design objective ise increasing fuel economy. You may adjust it with ECU mappings basicly.. Especially if you have a wideband O2 sensor. So i don't want to be a crazy for adjusting mappings.



This isn't true. I have a TPS adapted to a stock TB and it works perfectly with NO ill effects. The TPS really only plays a role in AE. The MAP does all the real work as far as engine load versus fuel is concerned.

Todd
_________________
'79 924NA. Rebuilt 9.5:1, MSDS header, Mega Squirt Injection, MJLJ-EDIS Ignition, 1.6L Whipple Charger and Intercooler, 10lbs Boost, 944 Trans, Custom HD Clutch.
"simsport" said....superchargers are better than turbos its official!....
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Raceboy  



Joined: 01 Mar 2004
Posts: 2321
Location: Estonia, Europe

PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2007 7:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually on speed-density systems TPS is used for acceleration enrichment. You DON'T want to use Alpha-N on street car, it get's you worse driveability and gas mileage than speed-density.

And it doesn't matter what shape or mechanism is the TB, 924 TB is fine.

EDIT: Todd got it first
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'83 924 2.6 16v Turbo, 470hp
'67 911 2.4S hotrod
'90 944 S2 Cabriolet
'78 924 Carrera GT replica
'84 928 S
'91 944 S2, sold
'82 924S/931 "Gulf", sold
'84 924, turbocharged, sold.
http://www.facebook.com/vemsporsche
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