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EFI Bolt On Kit
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-nick  



Joined: 16 Nov 2002
Posts: 2699
Location: Cambridge, MA

PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2005 4:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

First of all- you guys have some pretty crazy ideas about injector sizing! Bigger is not better. You'll never get even a 250hp 4-cyl to idle with 72lb/hr injectors. They would be matched for a 500hp 4-cyl. You really think that's going to happen? On a V8 you would be looking at 1000hp on those suckers.

36lb/hr match a 250hp 4-cyl perfectly and rumor has it that you can push them to about 42lb/hr at 4bar fuel pressure (should support almost 300hp). No need to go bigger unless you have some really big hp goals (and an idle of 2000rpm...)

Anyway, if you want some real number, this has been the list of my recent receipts (after lots of shopping around)-

463 MSnEDIS, harness, relay board, IAT, injector connectors,
2xdb7, shielding, ordered 12/17, pre-built
57 4 used 36lb/hr Brown top injectors
66 FPR (basic adjustable with pressure gauge)
110 Fuel rail, injector inserts
42.50 60mm Mustang 5.0 Throttle body (86-93) + TPS + gaskets (use whatever you want here)
27 stock Mustang fast idle solenoid for TB
?? fab your TB adapter (I'm doing some heavy intake mods)
30 wiring connectors/zip ties/etc.
50+ quality air filter and tubing to move it into fresh air
-------------
850+ TB mount + laptop (if you don't have one)


Extras to run digi-ignition:

100 crank trigger mated to pully
128 EDIS parts, ordered, 1/13 (optional in this discussion)
0 Blank for distributor ($10)
~30 Brackets for EDIS crank pickup
--------------
268


Now you just have to tune it-
320 Zeitronix wide-band o2 & EGT
~75 Initial dyno time to calibrate o2
25 drill exhaust manifold for EGT probe
---------------
425

Just EFI: $1275
w/ igition: ~$1575

Oh yeah, if you're going to actually add any power, you'll want:
200 headstuds
~150 gasket kits (more for turbo)
40 might as well pop in new rod bearings
100+ new rings...
----------------
another 500+, make it ~800+ if you need a turbo rebuild while everything is open.

Just trying to bring everyone back to reality...

nick
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ESC944  



Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 747
Location: FL

PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2005 4:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Nick... good information and solid real prices on stuff.
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CBass  



Joined: 03 Nov 2002
Posts: 2807
Location: Vancouver, Canada

PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2005 5:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nick, those injectors are for a throttle body injected ford, there are only two of them in the engine.

Prices you pay will vary greatly from junkyard to junkyard. My local DIY junkyard is full of old EFI chryslers, and they ALL have their injectors, so the guy isn't selling many. I bet I could get a set of 6 for $40, and spend about another $100 having them refurbished and blueprinted(this article was in GRM a few months ago. Subscribe to this magazine, it's well worth it).

You can still get a Megasquirt kit for $190 USD. You'll have to work out your own relays, but our cars already have a fuel pump relay and most of the necessary wiring anyways.

I'd spend the necessary cash to buy new sensors for the AIT and CT, no sense in skimping there. Same reason I'd want to use refurbished injectors, no sense in starting baseline tuning on an engine when it has faulty EFI components. I've looked up the parts, the coolant and air temp sensors cost about $20 together.

You can get a Passat 2.0 16v auto throttle body with a TPS for $20 from a wreckers. It bolts on, has a TPS, and requires no adaptor plate. My only concern is that the throw for the throttle linkage is on about a 30 degree angle for the 924.

You can get an old laptop for about $150 on ebay if you don't already have one.

We're replacing the outdated fuel injection system here. I'd be more concerned about the driveability and maintenance costs of the EFI, than any small performance gains I might get out of replacing the ignition as well. That can wait for another day, at least for me.

so $140 + $190 + $20 + 150 = $500. Anything I'm missing here? My engine is a recent rebuild, so I don't see any need to freshen it up. Maybe if someone has 200k on theirs, they might feel the need...
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-nick  



Joined: 16 Nov 2002
Posts: 2699
Location: Cambridge, MA

PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2005 5:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yep, you're still missing-

fuel pressure regulator
wiring&connectors (not exactly cheap, you need a lot of it)
db7 connectors
fabbing up a throttle cable
fuel lines & fittings
you even left out the fuel rail!

If you want to run the MS/injector/fast idle/etc. power through the stock fuse box, go for it, but the MS relay board simplifies wiring greatly and gives considerable peace of mind vs. the very tempermental stock box.

So add a several more hundred to your $500 tag. It adds up fast.

You can coarsely tune by reading plugs/etc, but isn't the point to make the car more efficient? More $$$...

nick
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AppleBit  



Joined: 16 Nov 2002
Posts: 1516
Location: Minneapolis, MN

PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2005 2:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

-nick wrote:
Yep, you're still missing-


...........

Nick has it right... I have spent more than $1000 on everything other than the ECU itself. I'll say this: A learning experience on this EFI setup that will be finalized and tuned/dyno'ed tomorrow afternoon has resulted in knowledge on how to build a system for a guaranteed low cost of UNDER 2k after taxes, shipping, ECU (MS) and everything else... To say it could be done for less than $1500--- no way...
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Porsche924boy  



Joined: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 252
Location: Ohio

PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2005 12:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm waiting for the dyno results
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endwrench  



Joined: 07 Dec 2002
Posts: 1631
Location: Victor, Montana

PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2005 5:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nick, Thanks for the reality check

Todd
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CBass  



Joined: 03 Nov 2002
Posts: 2807
Location: Vancouver, Canada

PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2005 6:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

-nick wrote:
Yep, you're still missing-

fuel pressure regulator
wiring&connectors (not exactly cheap, you need a lot of it)
db7 connectors
fabbing up a throttle cable
fuel lines & fittings
you even left out the fuel rail!

If you want to run the MS/injector/fast idle/etc. power through the stock fuse box, go for it, but the MS relay board simplifies wiring greatly and gives considerable peace of mind vs. the very tempermental stock box.

So add a several more hundred to your $500 tag. It adds up fast.

You can coarsely tune by reading plugs/etc, but isn't the point to make the car more efficient? More $$$...

nick


I was budgeting for making my own fuel rail, which is pretty much my own time to cannibalize the bungs for the injectors, and about $10 worth of steel from a fab shop where a friend works.

Fuel lines, rail, fittings, injector wiring etc comes from the donor car with the injectors. It's remarkably easy to bargain with a guy who has a dozen sets of identical injectors and accessories who hasn't sold a set in as long as he can remember. The regulators come with the donor fuel rail, further keeping the cost down. If I offer to buy 5 rails and their injectors, price starts to drop dramatically. I'm at this junkyard every other week, and I keep an eye on anything turbocharged or salvageable. There's a Merkur X4RTi that's been sitting in there for 6 months with a set of bosch 36lb/hr injectors, and a 60 trim Garrett T3, and it's very tempting right now.

I don't have to make a custom throttle cable, as I would be using a Passat 16v automatic throttle body, which bolts on. Like this one.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/VW-Scirocco-Rabbit-A1-1-8-Turbo-50mm-Throttle-Body_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ6763QQitemZ8000013597QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW

My brother is heavily into the turbo dodge scene, and you would be amazed at how cheaply you can acquire the stock components. Browse this forum to get an idea of what I'm talking about.

http://www.turbododge.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=28
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CBass  



Joined: 03 Nov 2002
Posts: 2807
Location: Vancouver, Canada

PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2005 6:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hate to double post, but here's an excellent example. 4 x 33lb injectors, cleaned using a professional injector cleaner, $100.

http://www.turbododge.com/forums/showthread.php?t=99210

Manifold with fuel rail and regs, $30
Injector harnesses, $5 each

http://www.turbododge.com/forums/showthread.php?t=99266

Note where the guy says "free T1" parts. That's because you can't SELL turbo one parts on that forum. Not even the NA guys want your old T1 injectors, rail, reg etc from a T1 parts car. Fortunately for us, we do.
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flosho  



Joined: 01 Jul 2004
Posts: 3153
Location: Eau Claire, Wisconsin

PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2005 7:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So cbass, that throttle body would bolt to a stock 931 intake manifold? I sourced all the parts for EFI today, however I am clueless as to what the best throttle body set up would be..

It couldn't be that hard to run the throttle body somewheres besides right off the manifold right? Like if i had a aluminum piece machined to adapt 2.5" intercooler pipe, then after the 90* bend towards the driver side light, in line on that, run the throttle body, I could basically use ANY round throttle body then right? so I could then go with a 70mm or something a bit larger than stock.

And sourcing the parts for the conversion is the easy part eh? :S
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moone924  



Joined: 05 Feb 2003
Posts: 866
Location: Douglas Wyoming

PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2005 9:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That TB wouldn't work on a series II car. But..... this will probably fit.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/VW-vr6-throttle-body_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ33558QQitemZ7995268462QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWD1V

Or...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Used-Throttle-Body-1994-VW-Jetta_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ33558QQitemZ7991065459QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWD1V
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Ryan Moone

Always shopping for a nice s2 931 to baby.
New philosophy : one car project at a time.
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Pat Dolan  



Joined: 21 Aug 2004
Posts: 26
Location: Martensville, SK Canada

PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2005 1:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Probably the best components to do a simple EFI system, since the stock ignition can be left alone, and it is very turbo-friendly stuff as well. No laptop, all programmed from the hardware.

go to: www.sdsefi.com

Of course, my 924n project will be using a very simple Bosch injection system that replaces the CIS as well.............................................

Pat
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moone924  



Joined: 05 Feb 2003
Posts: 866
Location: Douglas Wyoming

PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2005 1:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That SDS EFI reminds me of CB performance's efi kit for air-cooled VW's
www.cbperformance.com
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Ryan Moone

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Pat Dolan  



Joined: 21 Aug 2004
Posts: 26
Location: Martensville, SK Canada

PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2005 1:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Those 40 and better yet 48 mm Weber pattern throttle bodies with injector bosses give me a woodie. Makes me want to run out to the shop and build up a type IV (something I havent done in many years, but the parts are all just sitting on the shelf).

Pat
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CBass  



Joined: 03 Nov 2002
Posts: 2807
Location: Vancouver, Canada

PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2005 5:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That particular 52mm throttle body up for auction will not fit exactly as stock, since that particular throttle body has been modified with a VW A1 throttle linkage so that it can be used in Rabbits. The stock MK2/B3 linkage will work in a 924 application.

I have yet to acquire a 52mm t/b with a TPS, as my local junkyard doesn't have any auto 16v's or G60 Digi 1 cars. The TPS is on the bottom of the throttle body, I have yet to bolt one up and see if it will clear, but from the pics it looks like it will, either just barely or with some minor modifications to the TPS housing.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/85-91-VW-Throttle-Body_W0QQitemZ4575824315QQcategoryZ107058QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

http://members.rennlist.com/sbcspeed/HPIM0319.JPG

http://members.rennlist.com/sbcspeed/HPIM0320.JPG

The Passat t/b looks like a good bet too, but again there's no way of being sure if it will clear the manifold, without someone getting the t/b and bolting it up. BTW, that's just a heat shield which CAN be removed, on the bottom of the manifold.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/90-91-92-93-VW-PASSAT-THROTTLE-BODY-2-0-VOLKSWAGEN-1992_W0QQitemZ7978429283QQcategoryZ33558QQssPageNameZWD1VQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
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