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EFI Bolt On Kit
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Porsche924boy  



Joined: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 252
Location: Ohio

PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2005 12:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's my idea.

High Flow Injectors X4 $70ea. ($280 all together)
High Flow Fuel Rail $120
Racing Fuel Pressure Regulator $199
AEM ECU Computer+program $1599
High Flow Fuel Line $6.99 per foot
75mm throtle Body $150
Throtle Body Adaptor $75
Wiring loom $200
New Ignition System $1000
Trigger $150
Laptop $1500
Labor (if you dont do it) $500

Extra's we might want

NOS EFI KIT $549.99
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CBass  



Joined: 03 Nov 2002
Posts: 2807
Location: Vancouver, Canada

PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2005 2:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's a lot of money into a car that has a book value of $2K, just to make it more driveable.

Megasquirt kit, with relay board - $250
Just read an article in GRM of a company that sells the ECU kit with a relay board that contains mostly everything you need, you have the choice of building yourself or paying extra for them to assemble. If you don't already subscribe to Grassroots Motorsports, pick up the current issue as they do a full install of a Megasquirt system into a D-jet fueled Volvo, and tune it using Megatune. This is essential information for anyone who wants to get started.


Injectors, used and refurbished Bosch 36lb/hr - $160

Fuel rail. I could make and sell these for $100 each, mild steel, set up to use Bosch injectors. I think you can run 72lb/hr injectors in the same bung as the 36lb/hrs. The 72lb injectors come out of junkyard throttlebody injected Ford V8s. The 36lb/hr which are good for about 200hp came in all manner of EFI dodge 4 cylinders.

Throttle body with TPS from 91-93 Passat 2.0 16v with auto tranny, bolts on. - $20

Coolant and AIT sensors, I'd guess around $60 new from a GM dealer, please correct me if I'm off on that.

Cone air filter and bent pipe off ebay - $60

Ebay laptop - $150
Dyno tuning is nice, but you can pretty accurately judge power with a stopwatch, testing the powerband at high speeds and seeing how long it takes to pull from 4000-6500rpm, etc... Not as accurate as a dyno, but it's about 100% cheaper.

That's $800 USD all told. You can save money here and there, if you want to build your own harness for the ECU, get a better deal on injectors, (turbo dodge guys are usually giving away those 36lb injectors, many would trade a full set for a CIS cold start injector), build your own fuel rail, gut the CIS dizzy so that you can use your stock intake and air air filter, get used CT and AIT sensors from the junkyard, already have a laptop/notepad etc...

If you want a complete kit, it's not going to come cheaper than $700, although it wouldn't be all that hard to offer a basic 924 EFI hardware kit, with a fuel rail, injectors, throttle body, cone air filter, the coolant and AIT sensors and a fuel map for a stock 924, leaving the customer to figure out their own ECU choice. The wiring is going to be a little bit different in every case, but I bet we could pool our knowledge and work out a "how to" wiring schematic that would cover the stock 924, and would be a good starting point for figuring out other ignition setups, knock retard, etc.
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Raceboy  



Joined: 01 Mar 2004
Posts: 2321
Location: Estonia, Europe

PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2005 2:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm in the middle of the EFI (Motronic) conversion on my wifes 924 NA, the biggest challenge is triggers: I have two stock triggers, but I have to fabricate custom trigger wheel with marks, it's going to cost me about 100$...... Fuel rail (like evrything) is from Alfa Romeo 90 ('86) 2.0 (129 hp) and fits fine to a 924.
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CBass  



Joined: 03 Nov 2002
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Location: Vancouver, Canada

PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2005 2:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The injector to injector spacing is the same for the Alfa rail as the 924's? This would be convenient for EFI swappers!
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Raceboy  



Joined: 01 Mar 2004
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Location: Estonia, Europe

PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2005 3:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is quite rare Alfa model, but it's fuel rail is basically a tube with four high-pressure hoses connected to injectors and injector spacing is almost the same as 924 (difference is couple of mm's) and it fits ok. I'm not going to install the injectors on the stock location anyway, I'll mount them into the intake manifold.
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'83 924 2.6 16v Turbo, 470hp
'67 911 2.4S hotrod
'90 944 S2 Cabriolet
'78 924 Carrera GT replica
'84 928 S
'91 944 S2, sold
'82 924S/931 "Gulf", sold
'84 924, turbocharged, sold.
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CBass  



Joined: 03 Nov 2002
Posts: 2807
Location: Vancouver, Canada

PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2005 6:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd be willing to bang out a few fuel rails if the demand is there, but I don't have a source for fuel pressure regulators, so I'd need to mkae them to fit one specific type of regulator. I'd pick something common and with decent pressure, such as a GM or turbo dodge regulator, and the end user could pick up their own for cheap from a wreckers.
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flosho  



Joined: 01 Jul 2004
Posts: 3153
Location: Eau Claire, Wisconsin

PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2005 10:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know 500$ was a bit optimistic but I was figuring leadfoots fuel rail, and hoping if we could get 10 guys or so to commit, to get the price to come down a bit if we got a group buy for the other parts

For a 931

fuel rail 110
injectors 80
crank wheel ~100,
MS system 300
throttle body 60

misc. sensors and stuff would come to 150 at most..

Even if we didnt have a bolt on kit, it would be nice to have a write up for people such as myself that want to undertake a project like this but would need help... Parts that people have used and stuff..
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endwrench  



Joined: 07 Dec 2002
Posts: 1631
Location: Victor, Montana

PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2005 12:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CBass wrote:



Fuel rail. I could make and sell these for $100 each, mild steel, set up to use Bosch injectors. I think you can run 72lb/hr injectors in the same bung as the 36lb/hrs. The 72lb injectors come out of junkyard throttlebody injected Ford V8s. The 36lb/hr which are good for about 200hp came in all manner of EFI dodge 4 cylinders.

Throttle body with TPS from 91-93 Passat 2.0 16v with auto tranny, bolts on. - $20



Just a small correction. The Dodge EFI injectors are actually rated at 21lbs@43.5PSI. Turbo cars run a 55PSI regulator making them 24lb injectors. You still have the HP rating correct though.

I have never taken a very close look at Ford's TBI injectors but most others use open injectors designed to be enclosed and sealed by the TB housing itself. Four 72lb injectors would support more than 500HP!!

Oh BTW, I already make fuel rails if anyone is interested.

Todd
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flosho  



Joined: 01 Jul 2004
Posts: 3153
Location: Eau Claire, Wisconsin

PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2005 12:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

endwrench, I was actually thinking of you when I said leadfoot, I knew you made them, just I always get confused on the name..
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Lizard  



Joined: 03 Nov 2002
Posts: 9364
Location: Abbotsford BC. Canada

PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2005 1:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have considered making these kits myself and supplying them. however due to my job I would not be able to do it for awhile, as well I would have been only willing to supply a complete kit sans injectors, but would give a specific injector to use. I would have to dial in each FPR or use a common one with a set pressure. I would also state that if the person wished to actually make a go of it and wanted to succeed that person would have to STATE that there is NO technical assistance past the writeup that came with the kit and was avalible on the internet.
I know other people who have put out similar kits and they got HASSLED with tons of STUPID questions that were in the writeup that had been supplied.

but if someone hasnt done it in a couple of years or within a year, then I MAY take the project back up. but I make no guarentees.
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ESC944  



Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 747
Location: FL

PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2005 6:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well I would go with the basic concept that Lead foot put down and that I have talked about in the past.

That even a member has done and thats with the GM/DELCO setup.

I can say this. I have two setups, one for the 944 and one for the 931. what isnt done is the fuel rail for hte 931 and injectors. As far as a harness and the ECU and sensors, all GM Stuff.

The Prom is already good to go for a 2.0 Turbo and modified for the 2.5.

I did this along the lines of improving the performance levels of my NA turbo setup. I fiddled with it and set it aside. It is distributor and MAP based. As in no crank sensors.

I have the bin files already, I have the software, I have a prom burner.

I have the setup for on the fly/real tuning via a laptop. As I posted before the system compares to MS, is just as cheap etc. The only advantage is you get fuel and timing control, vs the older basic MS setup, the newer versions offer a lot of timing solutions.

So anything is possible.

I am using this same system to develop a propane based Fuel injection system, since the propane injectors are 18 ohm... well anyway. Lots of options, but I am rather busy like everyone else.

I can tell u that I did test the setup on the 944, it would run and idle, rev etc... but needed tweaking. I was using two laptops one to run the dyno program and the other to tweak the program for the EFI. Simple, easy and cheap. But I dropped it for lack of time and when I decided to return the car back to stock for testing of various add on parts, turbo, supercharger, water injection, etc....

Out of the box so to speak... the basic prom file would start and idle the car... Biggest headache is installing all the sensors and then tweaking the file. No hard programing, software is just as each to use as megatune.

Anyway... I say its worth it if you do it yourself. I know I will come back to it and when I finish the prom tweaking...

I just love having ignition and fuel adjustability especially real time on the fly.<very important to me.

This has been covered a lot in the past, in fact the details for the delco swap that was done on a 931 is in the archieves. I remember the write was quite good. Although I think that was distributorless, which with the sensors and such is more accurate, but for easy of install I say use the distributor and just upgrade the rest of the ignition system, just like with MS run the signal through a GM module and feed that to the ECU.
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flosho  



Joined: 01 Jul 2004
Posts: 3153
Location: Eau Claire, Wisconsin

PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2005 7:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ESC, you could donate the 931 setup to myself and I will try to put it to good use..
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CBass  



Joined: 03 Nov 2002
Posts: 2807
Location: Vancouver, Canada

PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2005 2:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

endwrench wrote:
CBass wrote:



Fuel rail. I could make and sell these for $100 each, mild steel, set up to use Bosch injectors. I think you can run 72lb/hr injectors in the same bung as the 36lb/hrs. The 72lb injectors come out of junkyard throttlebody injected Ford V8s. The 36lb/hr which are good for about 200hp came in all manner of EFI dodge 4 cylinders.

Throttle body with TPS from 91-93 Passat 2.0 16v with auto tranny, bolts on. - $20



Just a small correction. The Dodge EFI injectors are actually rated at 21lbs@43.5PSI. Turbo cars run a 55PSI regulator making them 24lb injectors. You still have the HP rating correct though.

I have never taken a very close look at Ford's TBI injectors but most others use open injectors designed to be enclosed and sealed by the TB housing itself. Four 72lb injectors would support more than 500HP!!

Oh BTW, I already make fuel rails if anyone is interested.

Todd


Ah, ok my mistake! Couple of questions, you make these rails out of mild steel or aluminum? Which injectors are they compatible with, and how much are you charging?

I was tipped to check out the Ford injectors because they are cheap, and the largest stock EFI injectors around. the 72lb/hr injectors came with the big block Ford V8's, IIRC out of the one ton trucks and vans. I think the smallblock TBI engines had either 42/52lb injectors, can't remember which... This is just what I remember from doing a little researching about a year ago, so I doubt all of my numbers are spot on
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flosho  



Joined: 01 Jul 2004
Posts: 3153
Location: Eau Claire, Wisconsin

PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2005 3:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I actually went out and purchased the GRM issue today, tomorrow when I go into school, I'll scan the article for everyone. It gives some good tips.. I really wanna do this to my car.


So are there basically two ways to go? one with the trigger(not sure exactly how this workds) and one with an ignition coil pack?
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ESC944  



Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 747
Location: FL

PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2005 3:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well the GM system I use and the MS will work with the stock distributor, not as good as a distributorless setup, but no crank or cam sensors to worry about.

Most of the stuff is cheap over the counter or from the junkyard. It can use high or low impedence injectors.

I got everything from the junkyard, sensors, harness, two fuel rails injectors, everything for 210.00 recently. Just went in and pulled it all. The harness can be made or modified, so far I have it down to about 49 wires. But will need to get the rest sorted out. The schematic I have sketched out should get that down a few more once I sort out the rest. This is for all the sensors, controls and the ECU. Need to do some better connections on the MAP pickup etc.. but not till I reinstall it, which will not be for a while.

The propane setup(reason I had to get a second setup) is about the same, but the main work is in getting the right fuel mix and tables in the prom file.

I really love the fact that the prom file I started with is calibrated and setup for 2 bar... makes adding a turbo to a na a lot safer. I want to get everythign calibrated and set for 3 bar.

I am also thinking about the MOPAR setups for the 2.2 and 2.5 those can be calibrated for 3 bar and are super simple, especially since the are already a close match for the 2.0 and 2.5... lots of options.

As for painless wiring harnes... well a lot of those are gm based, so using a gm ecu and such... well.

I do like the MS II setups... lots going on with the MS... and cheap.

I am seriously still thinking about ditching the efi project with regard to gasoline and go after straight alchy...
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