924Board.org

[Racing]

Time for a first report then i guess

VEMS is in the car,and the car is up and running.

We ran into some mercedes specific problems.
1/The OEM VR sensor of the merc has approx double the impedance of any others out there.830 ohms.This will make the VR produce a sharper signal,but to the cost of being more sensitive to electrical noise.
Sure enough..we saw intermittant noise on the log.
Got dead tired of that crap and called our local elect supplier up.Told em the prob,and that we needed the "baddest" signal wire around.
Cut up the OEM VR and soldered the whole deal in place.At the same time we also incorporated a "pull down" on the in signal at the box.
Presto..we had a trigger so rock steady that it wouldn´t move any more than a stranded walruss.

Car sat there and ran..calmly..when it simply died out on us.
No spark!
Now,the trigger circuit for the ign coil is built into the VEMS.
When we took the box apart we realized that the circuitry had burned to smithereens.
This circuit..is designed to handle inxs of 40 amperes.
So..something was most DEF at fault here.
Fused the circuit..for 5 amps...POFF!
For 10...POFF!!
So..the culprit was that the OEM mercedes ign module is of a so called CDI design.That...renders VERY low internal ign coil impedance..and..enormous currents as a result(sure enough tho..the spark could be used to light up kansas..)
So..we simply scavanged a generic coil off an old 383 chrysler around the shop in the middle of the night.
Now..now we had the engine purring like a damn cat..

Difference in throttle response is out of this world.
Difference in apperance...is not even funny.You get rid of all that K-jet crap in a hearbeat.

Now..as for long term reliability..you´ll have to stay tuned,but so far...i´m VERY happy.
Adjusting the VEMS is a damn breeze.
I mean...to the damn letter.

So..guess you can say that stage one of the project is completed.

[Racing]

Wideband LSU4 70 series off a VW.


Install..prototype fuelrail.Injectors for the NA is 380cc Bosch.Reason for the steel tubing FR is that we measure pressure fluctuations,and it being made out of steel makes any and all alterations a snap with the use of simple silver solder.U can easily spot the gutted KE-jet unit.
Reason for it still being in place at this time is ease of install for airfilter,throttle wire bracket asf.


Lightened flywheel with sinter clutch disc.


Cam gears cut for adjustability.Idea is to close LCA.From OEM 109 to 106 somewhere

[endwrench]

Whoa! Looking good!! Too bad about the Mercedes related problems you had to sift thru but atleast you figured them out without smoking another box. Were you able to fix the original box or did you need to replace it?

I should probably go and read the VEMS site but I'll ask you instead. Does the VEMS have wide band control built in or are you using a seperate controler and feeding the VEMS?

Are you using the display and keyboard for tuning or are you using a laptop? Thanks for the update!

Todd

[Racing]

The WB is completely controlled by the VEMS.
In fact,EGT values can be implimented as well-but as far as i´ve gathered this is at a beta stage as of current(we´re amongst the first to check it out)
Worse..the OEM VR sensor setup has to to.
Trigger in becomes so shallow that i get what i get at idle as far as ign timing goes-and that´s it.
So..dug up one of the snot cheap EDIS sheet metal wheels.
Gonna make a bracket for a Volvo VR and go from there-and what´s more make the damn deal adjustable.(mechanically)

That said..

Gettin there...and..guess it gives ya an idea of the physical size of the huffer.Yeah..i know..still in da raw..and it WILL get polished to show off the stainless,but still




Btw..running the lap top as is.
Simply connect it via an interface of a RS232 and a three pole music instrument jack that i´ve ddrilled a hole for below the glove box.
Can hardly notice it when you unplug the laptop.

[endwrench]

Polish it?!!! I'm already wiping druel off my keyboard!!

I gotta go back and take a closer look at that VEMS setup. It sounds better all the time.

Todd

[Lizard]

I think I am going to be picking one of these up this spring for the 81
_________________
3 928s,

[Racing]

Thanx Todd!
Anways.

I keep coming back to the related probs between the merc and the 931s especially.
Reason is that the K units by know are old worn parts,and we should a been done with the whole K-jetronic idea a long time ago.
Turbo engines especially can be had to deliver SO much more power by the simple implimentation of a good digital stand alone alone.

Sad part is..what i can´t give ya a feel for over the internet..is for instance the difference in idle and light load engine running quality alone.
In all...it´s like on two different maps.
You know me a little by know,and i seldom "boost" comments.
Here´s the deal.
The engine the VEMS is controlling by now has approx 200 000 km on it(approx 130´miles)
In other words,it´s nominaly worn.*LOL*
After the switch to the VEMS,i honestly have to look at the gauges from time to time to know that the engine is still running when coming to a standstill.
It´s THAT much of a difference when compared to the OEM KE unit.

Working with the VEMS..i´ll have to say that the map i use the most is the one under the label "tuning"- the 3D VE table.
Makes any and all changes fairly fast to impliment.
No,i do NOT trust the WB at first.
Reason is that at the first stages i wanna be the one in control,and that mainly to be sure and iron out any signal/ign asf peculiaritys.
WB..closed loop running can be turned on or off by the simple use of the keyboard anyways.

Btw.Yeah..we simply jumpered the motherboard and saved the box after the 40amp+ shot through the ign module circuit,and..what´s more..if it woulda F-ed the box up..any and all help is a phone call and 3 km away as Jörgen indeed IS a good,close friend..
Can you say factory support!

Apart from the mercedes specific problems..
Well..making the wiring loom was straightforward enough.
Just a soldering iron and some logical layout of the loom per se.
Contacts that come with the VEMS are bar none.
As you are relied on to pick up a relay socket,relay and related fuse holders..i´d say DO NOT go the cheap route.Check around,and pick something up that fills the ticket.
VR sensor signal wire..is cheap enough anyways..buy from local electronics supplier,and ask them to bring you the most "hard core" one they´ve got.EMI/RFI can wreak all sort of havoc,so don´t take that part lightly.

When setting the system up...use the hrs needed to get comfortable with it.The software that is.
Play around with the software until you get a feel for it.
Only two real deals i ran into..
1/Required fuel was WAY off..according to the VEMS calculator.
Had to decrease from a given number of 9 to a number of 5.
2/TPS hysteresis is set way to low by default.Number needs to be increased to 6 volts per second approx.This not to "fool" yourself when tuning due to added acceleration pump amounts.

Apart from that..we´re in the black.No real user defined problems.

[endwrench]

I know what you mean about not really being able to describe the difference. The word "free" comes to mind for me. Like removing the noose. I assume you are using the sequential capabilities of the VEMS unit but even with batch injection the idle and throttle response is far superiour to anything I could get from the CIS system.

The 3-D VE tuning maps make it much easier to see if you have fairly smooth transitions between bins. If you don't you can investigate the problem before wasting any more time.

Yea, I don't think I would trust any artificial inteligance and the WB until things are well roughed in. I barely trust my own!

Great you could save the board! I was reading this is one of the areas on the board that is actually end user serviceable. It is part of the work needed on the "finish your own" kits available from VEMS.

How many squirts per cycle are you using? Seeing you had to pretty much half the required fuel the calculator may not be adjusting for more squirts.

Yea, I always shut off acceleration enrichment and EGO correction before tuning. I found it pretty interesting you don't even need AE if your setup to run a bit on the rich side. Fun stuff!

Todd

[Racing]

Yeah,i indeed fire the injectors in firing order.
Point is..i plan to go wastefire with an EDIS coil the next couple of days.
Full sequential is a waste of time in my book tho,cause the ONLY reason for doing so in my case would be the power to be found,and...trust me Todd..that takes some research and time-not to mention injectors the size of texas.

Ergo sum,this has been a valid and straightforward modification.
The VEMS..i simplt take my hat off and bow.
This works.
Period.
..and in contrast to for instance the MS..this little box isn´t some analogue way of "el-cheapo" convert to EFI..it´s a full blown cutting edge project that´s as advanced as anything out there.
Being open source as the MS it´s a questionf of time between upgrades,and seing the open source setup the upgrades won´t cost you an arm and a leg either.

Rarely or seldom..do i come out impressed.Buut...kudos to those that deserve it,and in this case..yep.

For instance..i recently did work on a Lancer Evo 1.
Dynoed to 526 i believe.
Well..turned out that the engine had developed a miss.
Engine..controlled by a GEMS box.
GEMS..demand that you BUY the right to get the software needed to check the box.
GEMS...here´s a remark just for you;
EAT CRAP!
Soon enough..you´ll be out of business for the "big brother" attitude.
Trust me on this,cause when people get a hang/feel for what the VEMS can really do...and to what cost...
Bye bye the rest of the players that has used us tuners as a meal tickets for way to long.

It this really as good as i describe?
Yes it is.

[Racing]

Btw.
This..is where it all resides.
Can you say sleeper?

[sequential]

Ok Racing ,
This is where i step in , after just watching on the side lines for months and seeing the amount of dis-information floating around the 924board , i have not in the past interfered , because everyone seemed to be having fun . But i cannot allow ,this one sided self touting of the vems unit to fly without a little balance..

While i will agree that The VEMS is a better deal than the MS ( it should be ) it is nothing different or special in the market in which it competes.

A lot of the problems you have encountered in trying to get your car running would have been avoided if you had gone with a more profesional based system ( DTA, Motec, Autronics etc) as a matter of fact we could have provided you with a plug and play s60 or pro8 ( dta ) system that would have fired and ran without any issues the first time outwith the correct software application for you .(plug and play software).

I can understand your excitement over your VEMS system ( light years ahead of cis)and this is no attempt on my part to put down you or your system but just to advise and let others know that there are other viable options for them to use or to seek out .

We have in the past done the same 190E cossie deal turbo charged along with it's nemesis the M3 e-30 2.3 L and have seen 550( merc)-700 bhp.(M3) from both , my personal preference is the Mcar so i know you are going to be happy with your setup if the programming is right, if not you will damage the head real fast.


regards ,
Wayne
www.tpgproducts.com

[Racing]

Wayne.
I appreciate what you´re saying,and i disagree with all i am as to that a more professional system would have served me better.
Just like you,i do this for a living.

Over the yrs,i´ve worked on more or less all of them.
As far as DTA goes for instance, my close friends Peter Ovner(official contact for Haltech up here)of GIK and Peter Ahlquist of Etapp engineering are in England at DTA as of this post of mine.

Likewise Doug Flynn of Holley is a friend of mine to boot,asf asf.

Frankly speaking,what gets me with all the manufacturers of stand alones is that they promise the moon...and when it´s support time they´re no where to be found.(Frankly Holley might be an exception to the rule)
Just look at Haltechs "old" attitude...they more or less pointed you in the direction of "hitman" no matter what the Q was.

Haltech australia,Autronic asf..are a damn joke from this respect.
(Working on a autorotor equipped 6.9 with an autronic right now for cust)
From around here, so far one of the SA i´ve worked with is the finnish Hestec,and frankly speaking that´s been just as bad in this respect.(Developed by a gang at a local finnish university)

I think i might have come across the wrong way.
I´ve been asked by the VEMS group(no...i´m not involved any further than that)to deliberatly investigate and check what they put together-due to their belief in me as a tuner,and for the asked price of the VEMS...i recap..that there´s absolutely NOTHING that the other boxes will do that the VEMS doesn´t at a fraction of the cost.
It IS that well thought out a product.

Over the yrs...(first time out was with an F3 back in the early 80 on a Lotus Esprit)i´ve seen the SAs develop.(likewise with piggys-for whatever they´re worth)

I´ve put them to the test more times than i care to remember.

Motec..yeah..BTDT...and again....to what cost.
Take the story with one of my cust EVO1s...GEMS...no offense,but WTFs up with that.?

The old era Zytechs..could at least be relied upon to deliver.
Hell..i was around when we veiwed the "magic" motronic units for Martin Schankes BDT engines with awe..

So...sorry to disappoint you,but..i sincerly think that seing the cost involved there´s NOTHING out there that will touch the VEMS right now.
..you´re right on one account tho.
They indeed do the same thing-every last one of them.
The implimentation of avant garde tech...sure as hell brings the SAs forward,but again...we still haven´t passed the point of no return where AI boxes are around and us tuners can close shop.

As far as the merc engine...yeah..i sincerly hope so.
Been brainstorming with Kjell a bit about that.
Timeslips don´t lie,and the dude ran a corrected 7.80@330km/h with a rail chassis vega with the little engine that could.
Back..in 89.
Wring out the fabled moroso stick and check power level needed for a 2400lbs car to redo that feat.*LOL*
No SAs needed...he used an old kugelfisher.

[Racing]

Just a follow up.
Hand on heart,have you tried one of the VEMS units as of yet?


I for one really think that so far one of the few guys that´s been on the right track is DTA.
A SA..developed by a racer..
Motronic trigger...take it or leave it.
..and the whole deal indeed works.

Take the E11 for instance..who in his right mind would use a fraction of the features alone?*shakes head*

Guess what i´m trying to say..is that..
I want a box with a resolution between cells that´ll make it work.
I want a box that can be trusted to repeat what´s needed-over n over until hell freezes over.
I want a box that´ll let me get in contact with it via the lap..if i so take out the 12ga and pull the trigger at it.

I don´t care if it´s able to brew coffee if i yell at it hard enough..
I don´t care..if it´s able to control TCC or whatever..
I friggin demand factory support..cause IT IS needed from time to time.
One VERY smart way of handling that..is open source.

Just take the "hot tip of the week" phenomena...right now..everybody n his uncle want´s to go sequential.
Uhu..reeeiiight.
K.
Tell me...what´s to be the purpose of that?
OEM mans use seq to reach EPA goals asf.Kewl.
From a given duty up..we´re talking OEM systems becoming batch from a practical perspective anyways.
So..
We need mamoth sized injectors to be truly sequential at WOT.
K.
..and..the racers way,at least those of us that have invested time in appreciating it,tells us that we STILL don´t know what to be expected as far as power goes-sequential or not-until we ´ve tried more or less every setup we can dream of.
So..we start fiddling around with injector placement as best as we can,and..zillion of dyno hrs later we MIGHT end up with 2-3% better power within a given rev range.
Uhu...
..and still the general masses that buys themselves a SA...NEEDS it to be sequential.
Yeah yeah...

Agree or disagree?

[augidog]

Is there any way you can post the map and rpm advance tables?
I would love to see it.
Thanks
_________________
1978 924 95 mile daily driver.
Audi TB/POR174M/High Flow Cat/2.25" exhaust
I knew that positive thinking thing wouldn't work.

[sequential]

Well ,
I did not mention haltech in my response and i cannot comment on haltech or hit man etc or your buddies who at this moment is in the UK @ the dta factory etc ,etc, i can only tell you after doing over 300 race and street setup over the years that i/we have no such dread with dealing with our customers or systems. or making false claims .
I/we will only deal with direct facts regarding products and as i will say we or dta to my knowledge have never done or made claims etc that could not be backed up and we have been a US distributor of dta for over 6years.
We have produced and worked with and won races and championships in
SCCA, PCA,PBOC, BMWCCA, FIA, NHRA , ALONG with numerous so and central american races series .

my response to this post was just to let the board members be aware of other choices and what /who is available to them and not allow run away statements. no harn no foul

wayne
www.tpgproducts.com