|
924Board.org Discussion Forum of 924.org
|
View previous topic :: View next topic |
Author |
Message |
Kenodog
Joined: 25 Jun 2003 Posts: 2651 Location: Vancouver,B.C.
|
Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2023 4:34 am Post subject: Programmable Distributor for 931 |
|
|
Hey all,
So I'm gearing up to put on my big boy pants and getting the cars sorted out come spring. In the meantime it's inventory time and ordering what i need so there are no delays in getting these old ladies operational.
One thing I wanted to do to the '79 was a programmable distributor. There was a company in Germany that made these but I don't recall it being names 123 Ignition. Is this it or am I high :
https://www.classicautoelec.com/en/electronic-ignition-porsche/11377-electronic-ignition-programmable-engine-1600-r16tx-ts.html
??
Any help is as always appreciated. The grey matter is trying to rehash the finer details....
Me _________________ 1979 Euro 931, Olive
1981 931, Sabine
1991 Ford Ranger XLT 4x4, Ricky
1996 Ford E-350 ex-FedEx Van
2014 Mazda CX-5 (Kinderwagon)
2019 KTM 790 Adventure
2024 KLX300
2024 KLX140 |
|
Back to top |
|
|
morghen
Joined: 21 Jan 2005 Posts: 8884 Location: Romania
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
Carrera RSR
Joined: 08 Jan 2010 Posts: 2309 Location: Somerset, UK
|
Posted: Fri Dec 22, 2023 4:33 am Post subject: |
|
|
This dizzy has been on my car for near 10yrs. _________________ 1980 931 - forged pistons, Piper cam, K27/26 3257 6.10 hybrid turbo, 951 FMIC, custom intake, Mittelmotor dizzy & cam pulley, H&S exhaust, GAZ Gold, Fuch'ed, Quaife
Now www.924board.org/viewtopic.php?t=34690
Then www.924board.org/viewtopic.php?t=31252 |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Kenodog
Joined: 25 Jun 2003 Posts: 2651 Location: Vancouver,B.C.
|
Posted: Fri Dec 22, 2023 4:35 am Post subject: |
|
|
Carrera RSR wrote: | This dizzy has been on my car for near 10yrs. |
Is it worth the huge $ they want for it though ?
Leigh _________________ 1979 Euro 931, Olive
1981 931, Sabine
1991 Ford Ranger XLT 4x4, Ricky
1996 Ford E-350 ex-FedEx Van
2014 Mazda CX-5 (Kinderwagon)
2019 KTM 790 Adventure
2024 KLX300
2024 KLX140 |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Carrera RSR
Joined: 08 Jan 2010 Posts: 2309 Location: Somerset, UK
|
Posted: Sun Dec 24, 2023 9:24 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Kenodog wrote: | Carrera RSR wrote: | This dizzy has been on my car for near 10yrs. |
Is it worth the huge $ they want for it though ?
Leigh |
Compared to what else?
I priced up an MSD set up and it wasn't far off the same price, may be more, didn't come with any maps out the box, meant quite some wiring in and finding a location for the box, didn't look OEM. Didn't appeal to me.
Mittelmotor option is pricey compared to a stock 123ignition distributor but they don't offer one compatible with the 924 / turbo. What you do get is a 'plug and play' solution. Although I have heard/been contacted by some who could not get it to work. I tried to help but it failed them. I have no idea why that happened. It's quite a simple solution. _________________ 1980 931 - forged pistons, Piper cam, K27/26 3257 6.10 hybrid turbo, 951 FMIC, custom intake, Mittelmotor dizzy & cam pulley, H&S exhaust, GAZ Gold, Fuch'ed, Quaife
Now www.924board.org/viewtopic.php?t=34690
Then www.924board.org/viewtopic.php?t=31252 |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Beartooth
Joined: 05 Apr 2022 Posts: 212 Location: Roberts, MT
|
Posted: Tue Dec 26, 2023 7:46 am Post subject: |
|
|
That's pretty pricey (the turbo version; the NA is reasonable, and I can't think of anything else that'd do the job at that price). Still, for someone wanting full control of timing without having to do a bunch of wiring to run an external ECU, I can't think of any other options. You could buy a Microsquirt and everything you'd need for less though. Then you could either wire in an ignition module to fire the coil and keep the look pretty close to stock, or you could convert to EDIS or coil-on-plug, plus you could run the frequency valve off it as well.
Different budgets and priorities are going to drive different choices, ultimately. Even though it's not cheap, it's great that there's an option like Mittlemotor's distributor. The cheapest thing would be to resort to old-school distributor tuning, although that's a steep learning curve, or you'd have to find a distributor guru (not many of them still around). Just to get more spark, coil and plug wire upgrades would help for relatively cheap. For an all-out effort, I'd lean towards going through the hassle of wiring up a Microsquirt or ignition controller. That'd give you finer control, assuming you went full-on with a TPS, CTS, and IAT. Of course, that begs the question of "why not EFI?" but I wonder, if you've got a good CIS setup, if there's much to gain unless you're aiming for big power numbers. I guess for me, if I'm going to spend big money, I'd like the most sophisticated and capable solution possible, but that's a big investment in time and energy - easier said than done. _________________ 1980 931 diamond in the rough |
|
Back to top |
|
|
924RACR
Joined: 29 Jul 2001 Posts: 8815 Location: Royal Oak, MI, USA
|
Posted: Tue Dec 26, 2023 11:46 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I still contend that the only reasons the EFI conversion isn't more popular is because few have driven the car with it and experienced the difference.
Yes, it's a good bit of work, and yet perhaps the most challenging parts are simply sorting the fuel plumbing (which honestly isn't that hard) and making the wiring harness (takes a little time and diligence to do well, to ensure you have a solid, robust product). _________________ Vaughan Scott
Webmeister
'79 924 #77 SCCA H Prod racecar
'82 931 Plat. Silver
#25 Hidari Firefly P2 sports prototype |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Kenodog
Joined: 25 Jun 2003 Posts: 2651 Location: Vancouver,B.C.
|
Posted: Wed Dec 27, 2023 3:50 am Post subject: |
|
|
The reason I'm thinking of it is simply because the motor it will go on is a bit different than a stock 931.
I forget the actual build spec but it's something like :
88mm flat hypertension flat tops
Knife edged crank
Teflon scraper
NOS hybrid turbo with the bearing housing from a 951 mated to a 6.10 NOS K26 from Germany
Factory Carrera GT intercooler
911 SC aluminum pressure plate
Euro Motor Werks (think that's the name) big valve kit and a custom ported head and springs etc. that our man Dan used to sell
Fast road cam from Elgin
Bunch of other things, can't remember actually since it's been about 7 years since it was built. Sounds horny as heck and she's going to be a ripper. The WUR is rebuilt as is the entire fuel system. It's as good as it can be with the stock electronics but I'm thinking that at least some form of control would be nice to help dial it in as best we can. _________________ 1979 Euro 931, Olive
1981 931, Sabine
1991 Ford Ranger XLT 4x4, Ricky
1996 Ford E-350 ex-FedEx Van
2014 Mazda CX-5 (Kinderwagon)
2019 KTM 790 Adventure
2024 KLX300
2024 KLX140 |
|
Back to top |
|
|
morghen
Joined: 21 Jan 2005 Posts: 8884 Location: Romania
|
Posted: Wed Dec 27, 2023 6:20 am Post subject: |
|
|
I’ll try to make a cis/efi video when i have the silver 924SC running.
Running my efi system on the 931 is possible, only challenge is the trigger wheel thing, i may have to make something custom there. _________________ https://www.the924.com |
|
Back to top |
|
|
mattmax1981
Joined: 15 Mar 2020 Posts: 6 Location: Memphis, TN, USA
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
Beartooth
Joined: 05 Apr 2022 Posts: 212 Location: Roberts, MT
|
Posted: Wed Dec 27, 2023 6:08 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Maybe I'm just lucky to have as good a CIS setup as I've got. I can't compare to one with EFI, but mine just works. I hadn't driven it in a few weeks (between having some things apart for the leak-down check and being out of town), but the weather was nice last week so I decided to get it all back together. I had to run some snowmobile parts down to Cody (close to a two-hour drive, one way, farthest afield I've taken it). It started after just a few turns, drove perfectly the whole way down and back, and the only issue was starting after sitting a couple hours took fifteen seconds or so of cranking. I'm not arguing there's nothing to be gained from EFI, just that maybe there's less for some of us than others. Maybe years of previous owners' questionable fuel and repairs, or even not-quite-so-perfect from the factory parts leaves some cars with a lot more to gain?
Anyway, I think you'd lose out on a lot with that much of a build without more control over fueling, in addition to spark. The distributor upgrade would help a lot, but the adjustments possible with a completely stock CIS setup seem too crude, and judging by jacobroufa's conversion, just a Microsquirt and a few added sensors would unlock a ton of tuning potential. That dizzy would be great for a stock setup, but it just seems like a waste to add an intercooler, upgrade the turbo, and then have that 40-year-old lambda control still in the loop. Could be a liability too. Nothing wrong with EFI either - I could see why somebody would go that way as a matter of course - but it sounds like you're more where I'm at in terms of having a CIS setup you've invested in, that's working well for you. What FrankenCIS came up with is pretty brilliant, and you don't even need to buy their stuff to get most of the benefit. _________________ 1980 931 diamond in the rough |
|
Back to top |
|
|
924RACR
Joined: 29 Jul 2001 Posts: 8815 Location: Royal Oak, MI, USA
|
Posted: Wed Dec 27, 2023 9:56 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I actually just placed an order yesterday with Danst for their crank trigger kit. For my 931, I used Dan's crank trigger wheel and sensor setup... but their kit is maybe a little more complete anyway!
This is for converting the NA 924 racecar. Fiddled with the throttle body, looking at how to fit a TPS... will be a bit of a pain, but manageable I think. Just so much easier on the S2 931!! Note: rules require we keep stock throttle body, so the easy swaps aren't an option. _________________ Vaughan Scott
Webmeister
'79 924 #77 SCCA H Prod racecar
'82 931 Plat. Silver
#25 Hidari Firefly P2 sports prototype |
|
Back to top |
|
|
morghen
Joined: 21 Jan 2005 Posts: 8884 Location: Romania
|
Posted: Wed Dec 27, 2023 10:04 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I also saw someone posting on the fb groups about an efi conversion kit for the 931 S2. They had a neat fuel rail concept to be able to tuck it under the charge tube.
I went for looking somewhat original by keeping the fuel distributor block and running individual fuel lines from it to each injector. _________________ https://www.the924.com |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Cedric
Joined: 27 Aug 2004 Posts: 2614 Location: Sweden
|
Posted: Thu Dec 28, 2023 12:16 am Post subject: |
|
|
Beartooth wrote: | Maybe I'm just lucky to have as good a CIS setup as I've got. I can't compare to one with EFI, but mine just works. I hadn't driven it in a few weeks (between having some things apart for the leak-down check and being out of town), but the weather was nice last week so I decided to get it all back together. I had to run some snowmobile parts down to Cody (close to a two-hour drive, one way, farthest afield I've taken it). It started after just a few turns, drove perfectly the whole way down and back, and the only issue was starting after sitting a couple hours took fifteen seconds or so of cranking. I'm not arguing there's nothing to be gained from EFI, just that maybe there's less for some of us than others. Maybe years of previous owners' questionable fuel and repairs, or even not-quite-so-perfect from the factory parts leaves some cars with a lot more to gain?
Anyway, I think you'd lose out on a lot with that much of a build without more control over fueling, in addition to spark. The distributor upgrade would help a lot, but the adjustments possible with a completely stock CIS setup seem too crude, and judging by jacobroufa's conversion, just a Microsquirt and a few added sensors would unlock a ton of tuning potential. That dizzy would be great for a stock setup, but it just seems like a waste to add an intercooler, upgrade the turbo, and then have that 40-year-old lambda control still in the loop. Could be a liability too. Nothing wrong with EFI either - I could see why somebody would go that way as a matter of course - but it sounds like you're more where I'm at in terms of having a CIS setup you've invested in, that's working well for you. What FrankenCIS came up with is pretty brilliant, and you don't even need to buy their stuff to get most of the benefit. |
If you already have a perfect running cis car you wont feel any difference, except in the wallet:). The market is mostly for those who doesn't have that, or want to modify the engine more than the cis can handle. Wildly modify the cis is not very easy, and might result in a car which runs rough at lower loads etc, efi can have different saftey systems aswell to save the engine if something goes wrong.
Regarding the 123 unit, there was a guy in the uk924oc who went through two of these before switching to a different system from some uk supplier i think, but it seems to work for others. I cant remember what it was he switched to, i can look it up. _________________ 1980 924 Turbo
www.instagram.com/garagecedric/ |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Carrera RSR
Joined: 08 Jan 2010 Posts: 2309 Location: Somerset, UK
|
Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2024 10:44 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Cedric wrote: |
Regarding the 123 unit, there was a guy in the uk924oc who went through two of these before switching to a different system from some uk supplier i think, but it seems to work for others. I cant remember what it was he switched to, i can look it up. |
That was Alan and his CGT. I tried to help out and could not understand why it wouldn't work for him. No idea if it was the distributor or his car/wiring set up. Either way, yes he returned it.
Only other guy I spoke with was in Italy. He bought the 123 distributor direct from Nederlands, but that item wasn't going to work. I think he went to Mittelmotor after that _________________ 1980 931 - forged pistons, Piper cam, K27/26 3257 6.10 hybrid turbo, 951 FMIC, custom intake, Mittelmotor dizzy & cam pulley, H&S exhaust, GAZ Gold, Fuch'ed, Quaife
Now www.924board.org/viewtopic.php?t=34690
Then www.924board.org/viewtopic.php?t=31252 |
|
Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
|