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Supercharged 924 NA
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Mike9311  



Joined: 14 Dec 2004
Posts: 1678
Location: Chicago-ish

PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2021 8:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

...I'll help you out Jacob



Man I am glad somebody is getting stuff done. Work has me worn out and beat so this is happy stuff
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1980 924 NA (R&D lightweight)
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morghen  



Joined: 21 Jan 2005
Posts: 8868
Location: Romania

PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2021 2:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well with around 37-38C (100 deg F) its not very pleasant to work outside around here.
So instead of growing mould on my back..i did some sloppy video editing

EDIT: here is the link to the complete how to video so that its also visible on this page:

Now with chapters and description for easier and more organized viewing
https://youtu.be/DizZsXy0SDU
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jacobroufa  



Joined: 18 Nov 2016
Posts: 529
Location: Belvidere, IL

PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2021 4:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That video is awesome. Looks pretty involved, but manageable. I am going to have to watch it several more times by the looks of it.
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morghen  



Joined: 21 Jan 2005
Posts: 8868
Location: Romania

PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2021 4:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, its very important that every one that is thinking of getting this kit understands enough and is comfortable with all the work needed for the kit to be installed.
It is bolt on to a certain degree, but it also has you cutting into the airbox, bending a couple of parts and doing some minor mods here and there.
I like to do the airbox, dipstick bracket mod, crank pulley, supercharger prep and the other engine bay general prep in one day, and complete the installation the next day when everything is prepared and ready for assembly.
For me its a quest and a joy, a Lego+ game, please make sure its the same for you before committing to it.

Also, the result is rewarding but not spectacular, keep in mind that this is a moderate and sensible upgrade in power, its biggest gain is driving experience and the smile on your face.
You will not have a burnout-monster/dragster/drift-machine/racer after you fit this to your 924. It will just feel like the 924 should have sounded like this and pulled like this from the factory.

In the end this aims to be a @1.5k investment in your 924 that should make you want to drive it more while allowing you to play Lego for a few days and not completely butchering your 924, and keeping the option to go back to original should you want that some day.


I'm going to start driving the 924 today, fingers crossed that the 3D printed parts hold as expected.
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XLR8  



Joined: 30 Mar 2016
Posts: 143
Location: Byron Bay, Australia

PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2021 8:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Morghen, I have been watching this project for some time, and applaud your efforts.

A couple of questions. I am not an expert on this stuff at all, so if my terminology or questions are badly worded, I apologise.

1) You mention 0.2bar as the output of the supercharger (~3psi). This is a lot less than the 11+psi that they produced in the Mini. Have I got that right, and if so, is that just to ensure that the 924 cooling, fuel and other systems can keep up?

2) Is additional fuelling just a matter of watching AFRs and fiddling with the mixture screw? Or WUR pressures? How is boost compensation managed in the mixture?

3) If it is ~3psi, my simple maths says about a 15-20% boost in torque. Does that sound right?

4) If a charge/intercooler was put inline, would the smaller pulley supercharger be useable (more psi), or would fuel, etc struggle to keep up?

5) How far way are you from offering the kits?

I know you have been testing all this stuff out (so we don't have to), and have owned a 931, so I am sure you've workled all this out well. Thanks for all the work you have done so far!
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morghen  



Joined: 21 Jan 2005
Posts: 8868
Location: Romania

PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2021 11:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the kind words, i do my best, hopefully this is enough to refresh the 924 scene a bit.
Answers marked with red below.

XLR8 wrote:
Morghen, I have been watching this project for some time, and applaud your efforts.

A couple of questions. I am not an expert on this stuff at all, so if my terminology or questions are badly worded, I apologise.

1) You mention 0.2bar as the output of the supercharger (~3psi). This is a lot less than the 11+psi that they produced in the Mini. Have I got that right, and if so, is that just to ensure that the 924 cooling, fuel and other systems can keep up?
YES, its for safety and longevity.

2) Is additional fuelling just a matter of watching AFRs and fiddling with the mixture screw? Or WUR pressures? How is boost compensation managed in the mixture?
With this setup you're always on boost so its just a matter of watching the AFR and adjusting the screw.
I'm going to start driving my car with an AFR gauge on and log some data/record some video of how the CIS keeps up with the 0.2bar


3) If it is ~3psi, my simple maths says about a 15-20% boost in torque. Does that sound right?
Yes, that is the aim of this project, 15-20% more torque, flatter torque curve and 100% more smile.

4) If a charge/intercooler was put inline, would the smaller pulley supercharger be useable (more psi), or would fuel, etc struggle to keep up?
Hard to say, some people say that the limit of the NA metering head is 155-160hp. I will surely try to run more boost after i'm finished with the intercooler upgrade for the kit. What i can say is that 0.2bar seems to be safe enough for an old engine and no intercooler.

5) How far way are you from offering the kits?
If nothing fails in the next 2-3 weeks i'll start pre-production and start to organize a list.

I know you have been testing all this stuff out (so we don't have to), and have owned a 931, so I am sure you've workled all this out well. Thanks for all the work you have done so far!

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morghen  



Joined: 21 Jan 2005
Posts: 8868
Location: Romania

PostPosted: Fri Aug 20, 2021 7:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Only managed to drive the car today.
Not very hot day, for some reason we dropped like 10deg C from one day to the next...so only had like 27deg today.

Initially the AFR was all wrong, way too lean, but using the SCG-1 it literally took me a minute to set the AFR.
I drove it as i usually do during the day and recorded a bit of part throttle action in the evening.
Happy to report that CIS keeps up well with a decent and linear mixture...and this with the brand new charger that makes more boost than the old one.


https://youtu.be/5oG2HzS422k
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jacobroufa  



Joined: 18 Nov 2016
Posts: 529
Location: Belvidere, IL

PostPosted: Fri Aug 20, 2021 7:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Watched the video more and I just picked up a good condition used air box as a spare to cut. I'm so ready for this!

So in the video you mention to detune / dial back advance by about 3 degrees. This can be done with a simple timing strobe..

However in posts now you're also discussing keeping track of and setting a proper AFR by other means.. do you recommend that for investing in this project a wideband sensor and boost controller is needed as well?
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morghen  



Joined: 21 Jan 2005
Posts: 8868
Location: Romania

PostPosted: Fri Aug 20, 2021 7:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Your engine may work with more ignition advance than mine, or less ignition advance than mine, i gave a rough guide value of 3deg because that worked for my engine using the old charger.
I have to drive the car more with the new charger but seems to work with the new one as well.
I didnt use any tool, just approximated 3deg by eye/hand.

When i'm going on the dyno, i'll surely tune to maximum ignition advance that works without detonation occurring.

If you know what you're doing and play safe you can do the ignition and fuel mixture tuning by feel, but i certainly do NOT recommend that.

The effort to install a wideband gauge is more than worth it, it took me one minute to set the AFR to a decent value today.
Last year when i first started driving the car with the supercharger it took me a couple of days of driving, looking at the plugs, guessing, tuning, driving, looking at the plugs...yes it can be done...but it is less than ideal.


So, ideal situation is: AFR gauge with wideband sensor, proper timing setting tools and dyno.

I survived without any of those, but played it really safe.

AFR gauge is highly recommended for setting and monitoring the fuel mixture.
A strobe light that can set a reference and then tell you how much advance you're running from that is also a great tool, i will get one as well in the near future.

You dont need a boost controller.
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Fasteddie313  



Joined: 29 Sep 2013
Posts: 2596
Location: MI

PostPosted: Fri Aug 20, 2021 8:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AFR seems pretty steady!

As long as your not getting lean near redline then I’d say the fuel is keeping up..

I would really like to see a WOT pull in a high gear from about 1500 RPM to redline.. Maybe even with some brakes to make it longer..

This stock CIS just seems to hold pretty steady AFR no matter the condition, I’m maybe seeing it drop from high 13s to high 12s max change while on throttle..

If I had control of it I’d like it to cruise closer to 15 and drop to atleast low 12s at WOT for safety, but I think what you have will do the trick at lower boost levels..
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kondzi  



Joined: 02 Jul 2018
Posts: 485
Location: Poland/EU

PostPosted: Mon Aug 23, 2021 5:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was always impressed how stable is the CIS/WUR setup in AFR readings.
Ciprian I have to ask - what if someone wants more boost? I'm talking full EFI conversion to follow. Will your strengthened parts keep up with higher boost? And ideas about how much it will survive? We have a very nice forum in Poland (www.924.pl) and I know some may be interested in your kit as well.
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morghen  



Joined: 21 Jan 2005
Posts: 8868
Location: Romania

PostPosted: Mon Aug 23, 2021 5:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm hard at work testing the setup
Had a couple of drives up the hill, lovely and effortless to climb.
After a few days like this, i miss my comfy and quiet diesel Touareg.

https://youtu.be/kqCOzCEehFo

Konrad, I'll do an intercooler option/upgrade for the guys who want EFI and more power...but if the CIS is working, i see no reason to use EFI.
I think with an intercooler more power will be freed from the existing setup and more boost can be had.

I'm currently running a very thin 3D printed charge tube, just 1mm thick and some 0.5mm carbon fiber wrap and its holding up well so far.
Pressure is not the problem, extended heat exposure is.

Also, the biggest bottleneck is that restrictive throttle body...i wish we had a round one...oval is such a bad idea.
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jacobroufa  



Joined: 18 Nov 2016
Posts: 529
Location: Belvidere, IL

PostPosted: Mon Aug 23, 2021 9:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

morghen wrote:
Also, the biggest bottleneck is that restrictive throttle body...i wish we had a round one...oval is such a bad idea.


Would it be possible to design an upper intake piece for a round throttle body, like a Weber Redline? I have one on my shelf and have thought about putting it on except I have the upgraded Audi throttle body already and my gain would be minimal if anything.. but if it's better for this application I'm game to try..
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morghen  



Joined: 21 Jan 2005
Posts: 8868
Location: Romania

PostPosted: Mon Aug 23, 2021 4:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, surely i can adapt to a different TB shape, but the idea is to use the factory one. Its gutting the flow clearly but it also allows for smooth driving when you want it.
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jacobroufa  



Joined: 18 Nov 2016
Posts: 529
Location: Belvidere, IL

PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2021 12:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, I mean not literally "can you".. that makes sense. But for an application like this where there's a well known aftermarket part, or possibly a 931 S2 intake manifold if it would be reasonable to support it? I think your answer is not.

I'm just getting antsy and thinking up stupid questions to ask.

Will be pulling my exhaust at some point in the next week to facilitate installing the wideband.. Want to have that in before the charger kit is done. Spare airbox arrived this weekend, ready for me to cut up..
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