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924RACR
Joined: 29 Jul 2001 Posts: 8794 Location: Royal Oak, MI, USA
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Posted: Fri Apr 09, 2021 3:13 am Post subject: |
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Hey, Joe, you get that car running yet??? _________________ Vaughan Scott
Webmeister
'79 924 #77 SCCA H Prod racecar
'82 931 Plat. Silver
#25 Hidari Firefly P2 sports prototype |
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joewest
Joined: 06 Oct 2005 Posts: 234 Location: Portland, OR
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Posted: Sat Apr 10, 2021 3:48 am Post subject: |
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Going to get back into it this weekend. It has been very busy at the office this week with three new buildings in design.
I will post all findings immediately! Cannot wait! _________________ '79 924 Supercharged / Track Prepared
'80 931 Daily Driver - Sold
"The number of posts in my profile may represent the number of times I have screwed something up...and admitted it here." |
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joewest
Joined: 06 Oct 2005 Posts: 234 Location: Portland, OR
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Posted: Sun Apr 11, 2021 4:39 am Post subject: |
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Tried some starter fluid and got a backfire out of the throttle body.
There is quiet a bit more fuel on the spark plugs now with the updated tables but no fire.
When cranking, the fuel pressure gauge on the Regulator is pretty solid at 43.5PSI so I think pressure is OK in the rail. I am still puzzled as to why the WUE is not on when cranking the engine when it was on previously. I must have changed a setting that turns that off somewhere but the table should turn it on at the temperature I am at. Going to dig into the datalog and see what I can find.
Current Tune
https://app.box.com/s/0xx48em1ruzxb37vsd5bhbtrinwytfup
Datalog
https://app.box.com/s/3x8fgz6m32e774vkhb3jn2ehfts0imgz
Any thoughts? _________________ '79 924 Supercharged / Track Prepared
'80 931 Daily Driver - Sold
"The number of posts in my profile may represent the number of times I have screwed something up...and admitted it here." |
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Rasta Monsta
Joined: 12 Jul 2006 Posts: 11723 Location: PacNW
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Posted: Sun Apr 11, 2021 6:47 am Post subject: |
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This is a dumb suggestion, but TDC of cam, crank and trigger wheel triple checked? It seems like it should be at least trying to fire. _________________ Toofah King Bad
- WeiBe (1987 924S 2.5t) - 931 S3
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Fasteddie313
Joined: 29 Sep 2013 Posts: 2596 Location: MI
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Posted: Sun Apr 11, 2021 6:59 am Post subject: |
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Ignition timing..
Should have ran on starting fluid otherwise..
Firing out the TB says to me that your firing while the intake valves are open.. _________________ 80 Turbo - Slightly Modified |
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Rasta Monsta
Joined: 12 Jul 2006 Posts: 11723 Location: PacNW
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Posted: Sun Apr 11, 2021 7:37 am Post subject: |
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Fasteddie313 wrote: | Firing out the TB |
Can also indicate extreme lean condition. _________________ Toofah King Bad
- WeiBe (1987 924S 2.5t) - 931 S3
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joewest
Joined: 06 Oct 2005 Posts: 234 Location: Portland, OR
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Posted: Sun Apr 11, 2021 8:00 am Post subject: |
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Rasta - Triple checked. But I think the cam position is sus.
Freddie - Agreed. Here are images of the cam position with cyl#1 at TDC Compression. The "0"mark on the flywheel is aligned with the casting arrow:
Exhaust lobe ready to come down after compression event:
The red painted dimple in the cog lines up with the cast arrow on the valve cover:
VR sensor @ 9 teeth CCW from missing tooth (that's a Ford Escort Crank Pulley):
I am going to focus on getting a strobe for cylinder 1 with the ECU disconnected. With the fuel pump fuse pulled, I should be able to crank the motor and I should get 10 degrees advance with the EDIS working in "limp-home" mode. This should verify VR sensor, etc. _________________ '79 924 Supercharged / Track Prepared
'80 931 Daily Driver - Sold
"The number of posts in my profile may represent the number of times I have screwed something up...and admitted it here." |
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924RACR
Joined: 29 Jul 2001 Posts: 8794 Location: Royal Oak, MI, USA
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Posted: Mon Apr 12, 2021 12:18 am Post subject: |
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My warmup enrichment isn't active while cranking either, only after cranking bit is off. While cranking, I'm at 24 degrees advance as noted, and around 13 PW. You're showing around 10PW, so could go a touch richer, though that shouldn't be the deciding factor.
Overall, our settings are quite similar for cranking, though you have a lot more WUE than I have - mine's only about 130% at around 60F, yours is like 200%. But we haven't gotten far enough for that to matter, you're still cranking, of course.
I do note that mine is set for Cranking fuel pulse rate every event (under Cranking/Startup settings), yours is set for alternate. Not sure how relevant this is to your issue, though.
So yeah, timing would seem suspect. I forget, did you go through the settings needed for your missing tooth position relative to sensor at TDC? Your setup is very different than mine, so can't compare.
Your cam timing seems at least in the ballpark, tough to be completely certain without the cam cover in place and with an adjustable pulley. _________________ Vaughan Scott
Webmeister
'79 924 #77 SCCA H Prod racecar
'82 931 Plat. Silver
#25 Hidari Firefly P2 sports prototype |
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Rasta Monsta
Joined: 12 Jul 2006 Posts: 11723 Location: PacNW
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Posted: Mon Apr 12, 2021 2:30 am Post subject: |
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Cam timing cheat...when #1 is on TDC, #4 should be tits-on overlap. Pretty easy to eyeball. _________________ Toofah King Bad
- WeiBe (1987 924S 2.5t) - 931 S3
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Fasteddie313
Joined: 29 Sep 2013 Posts: 2596 Location: MI
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Posted: Mon Apr 12, 2021 4:25 pm Post subject: |
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I think it’s your base timing..
https://www.diyautotune.com/support/tech/other/base-timing/
Maybe try retarding your base timing like 10 degrees at a time a bunch of times and see if you can get it to start.. If not, try advancing it..
Once you get it to actually start you should be able to set your base timing spot on with your timing light..
If your pickup sensor is 9 degrees ccw from your missing tooth, it thinks your 9/Xteeth degrees advanced from TDC, then add 10 degrees more advance for the default settings??
Not sure..
Is it wasted spark where it fires on compression and exhaust stroke, or not?
Gotta be ignition timing if it won’t even fire on starting fluid and your cam timing is correct.. _________________ 80 Turbo - Slightly Modified |
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safe
Joined: 18 Mar 2017 Posts: 583 Location: Sweden
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Posted: Mon Apr 12, 2021 4:52 pm Post subject: |
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If you lock the timing to 0 degrees and you check with a timing light, is your pully TDC mark spot on? _________________ /Magnus, Stockholm Sweden
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Porsche 924 -79 NA, EFI and Turbo.
Porsche 931 -79
Porsche 911 -77, 3.2 Targa
Porsche 911 -69, 3.6, Coupe |
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procyon
Joined: 09 Sep 2015 Posts: 70 Location: Peers Alberta Canada
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Posted: Wed Apr 14, 2021 6:54 am Post subject: |
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Haven;'t had a look at your tuning files yet but one thing I noticed is that you say you have a 36-2 toothed wheel for the Ford EDIS. I am using a 36-1 wheel which I believe is the correct configuration for the EDIS system.
I'll have a look at your files when I get home tonight. _________________ 1981 924 N/A (Now the parts car)
1980 924 N/A ( 5 bolt discs and better paint) MS II V3.57
2003 Subaru Baja
2021 Maxda CX-30 |
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joewest
Joined: 06 Oct 2005 Posts: 234 Location: Portland, OR
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Posted: Wed Apr 14, 2021 7:43 am Post subject: |
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36-1 wheel, VR sensor is 1mm from tooth:
Cam Timing Mark
I am double checking all of the wiring and pin-outs in the EDIS equipment tonight. _________________ '79 924 Supercharged / Track Prepared
'80 931 Daily Driver - Sold
"The number of posts in my profile may represent the number of times I have screwed something up...and admitted it here." |
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safe
Joined: 18 Mar 2017 Posts: 583 Location: Sweden
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Posted: Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:29 am Post subject: |
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So your trigger is about 90 degrees before TDC, you have that in the config?
Have you checked that 0 degrees is 0 degrees yet? Because you might have to alter that 90 to, like, 85 or 95 so you are exactly right on. _________________ /Magnus, Stockholm Sweden
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Porsche 924 -79 NA, EFI and Turbo.
Porsche 931 -79
Porsche 911 -77, 3.2 Targa
Porsche 911 -69, 3.6, Coupe |
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joewest
Joined: 06 Oct 2005 Posts: 234 Location: Portland, OR
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Posted: Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:06 am Post subject: |
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My understanding is that "Trigger" is the relationship of the VR sensor reading the 9th tooth after the missing tooth, and actual engine TDC. Markings on the motor indicating TDC do not need to be where the VR sensor is mounted. In my photo, engine TDC, VR picking up the 9th tooth and the missing tooth being 90 degrees ahead is the condition to fire the wasted spark in coil A, which is cyl# 1 and 4.
I do not want to set the missing tooth setting in the tune configuration because MS2 reads the EDIS as a simple distributor as the EDIS takes care of the trigger wheel relationship and sends only a PIP signal the the MS processor. Not tooth counts. MS then sends a SAW signal to the ignitor to manipulate timing. Unless I missed a step in the manual. With the MS unplugged, the limp-home mode in the EDIS should fire at 10 degrees away from TDC so there should be some action here.
My first suspicion was that the motor was not TDC Compression but TDC Exhaust/Intake dwell. I think I eliminated that. Now I am on to the wiring to confirm that the VR sensor polarity is correct, good grounding, etc. A crossed wire within the EDIS system could cause confusion as to when to fire. This is with the MS ECU disconnected and eliminated as a factor.
Once I get a strobe on the timing light in the neighborhood of the TDC mark on the flywheel, I should have then established "Base Timing". Since I do not have an interference motor, I may plug the ECU back in an move the timing around in 10 degree increments to see what happens.
Maybe I have this all FUBAR? _________________ '79 924 Supercharged / Track Prepared
'80 931 Daily Driver - Sold
"The number of posts in my profile may represent the number of times I have screwed something up...and admitted it here." |
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