924Board.org

[datatrain]

Why cant an American Car company in 2009 make a car that gets 40+mpg but produces healthy hp numbers (220+hp) ?

That's a very good question. I think it goes to the American manufacturers culture. They have a long history of ignoring the rest of the worlds develpoments. As Ron Dennis of McLaren F1 said " The U.S. is the worlds largest island "

Think back to how many US cars had fuel injection, disk brakes, Halogen headlights and electronic ignition in 1978 and how long it took to get them here. Think Radial tires !

Look at Europe today and the efficient diesels they produce. See any trends towards diesel cars here ?

The Detroit 3 aren't going to change their culture now they are Govt supported.
_________________
'78 924 NA with Collector plate
33 year old car, with me for 21 yrs
Mint '92 318i BMW
Near mint '98 Buick LeSabre
VE7HFR

[Martijnus]

boycot the hell out of it.

I've lost all confidence in the current transport since I've seen what EGR systems do to an engine making it really really REALLY inefficient and polluting...but at homologation they recieve 'clean as shit' labels, forcing them through side channels on the road.

I always wondered why the '00 honda insight had a wonderful REAL mpg of 1liter on 33 km (euhh... what's that? gallon is about 4lit? 33km is about 20miles?... so that's 80mpg?)

and the new insight is worse? wtf is happening?
why did my dad's car ran the same mpg 30 years ago? ok it was a citroen 2cv, but come on... those things compensated their little weight with little efficiency.

Somethings wrong and everybody knows it.
100yrs ago they had hybrids, they had electric cars which could get 160km without recharging. Technology has set us back.

I'm going to live in the forest and walk to work. Which I don't have to do, because I don't have to work because I don't need money for food, since I catch my food. Imagine how much time you'd have. And the only thing you can do with your time is be happy, cuz you got no stuff.

My kingdom for setting me back 10.000 yrs.
Too bad my linear time machine doesn't work with the past, only with future.
_________________
"Rule: Turbo's make torque, and torque makes fun." (C. Bell)

924 "50-jahre", 1981.
MSII/extra, LPG, ITB's, 5lug.
To be turbo'ed in a while.
Killed her at the Nurburgring, Porscheless at the moment

[356speedster]

The trend in Europe is small but efficient turbo diesel's

Volvo DRIVe, VW Bluemotion, Ford Econetic, BMW Efficient Drive, etc... are all efficient cars that can compete with the hybrids, but still are normal cars as we know them.

Take a look at what Volvo has accomplished with their "DRIVe" range using the efficient 1.6 liter turbo diesel engine, it only produces 110 HP which doesn't sound like much, but it delivers 240 NM torque (176 lb·ft) + a 20 NM extra "over-boost" function. Not a rocket on wheels but it behaves much like a 150+ HP petrol engine at normal driving and it functions very well in their S40/V50 and C30.

The Volvo C30 DRIVe has emission just as low as the Prius on paper, and actually beat the Prius on emissions in a real world test in Germany! What makes this interesting is that Volvo accomplished this without stripping the cars for any comfort equipment.

Instead they added a modifed version of their top range aero package (spoiler kit), undetray under the whole car with rear diffusors, lowered the car 10 mm, improved airflow through the engine compartment, thinner transmission fluid and low roll resistant tires. In short, they reduced drag and rolling resistance and in addition they added a start/stop system that shuts off the engine at traffic lights and a generator that disconnects at acceleration (more power to the wheels) and engages at coasting and take advantage of the braking force to recharge. The C30 DRIVe average 3.9 liter/100 km and goes as low as 3.4 liter/100 km on the highway! The S40 Sedan and V50 medium size estate have nearly identical figures.

In my opinion the current hybrids don't have any advantages compared to these eco-diesels. And the funniest thing is that you can get a "plug-in" chip update for around 1000$ that pops the 1.6 diesel up to 140 HP and above 300 NM torque without loosing the milage And if that aint enough omph the D5 version with the 2.4 liter 5-cylinder turbo diesel deliver 205 HP and 420 NM (310 lb·ft) in stock form. With a BSR chip it delivers around 250 HP and 520 NM, but I've heard rumors about it being tuned up to 300 HP and who knows how much torque...

Sorry if this post sounds like a Volvo choir. but the new V50 DRIVe impressed me enough to decide to trade in my petrol guzzling Chrysler Voyager for a more efficient family car, and with the high petrol prizes here in Norway I can almost finance the new Volvo by the fuel saving alone! So I'm sitting here tapping my fingers while waiting for it to be delivered in mid May

I've also been considering a C30 with the 1.6 Diesel as a second daily driver (we need 2 reliable cars), but then my wife demands that I have to sell my other cars. I can easily let the Fiat go, but the Porsche's.......
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1982 Porsche 924 na My 924 blog
1990 Porsche 928 S4 My 928 blog
1995 Fiat barchetta
2007 BMW 318d M-Sport
2010 Volvo V50

[CorsePerVita]

I'll go 100% green when they tear the fuel tanks out of the ground and stop selling me petrol. No matter what you do, it just isn't the same.
_________________
- 1977 Porsche 924 2.0 N/A (Trackday Project)
- 1979 Porsche 924 2.0 N/A (The other daily)
- 1980 Porsche 931 (Daily)
- 1987 Lamborghini Jalpa
- 1999 Ducati 900SS

[356speedster]

That won't happen for a long while, but instead there will also be more efficient petrol engines. VW is leading the way with the new 1.4 liter 4-cyl petrol engine that I believe deliver 170 HP using both a supercharger and a turbo, where the supercharger takes care of the low rpm torque and then disconnects at mid rpm and let the turbo take care of the top end.

The development of these small high efficiency engines will make the technology common and cheap, so we will soon see this technology transferred onto the larger engines too and then with considerable power output at a reasonable consumption.

But for the near future I believe we will see more of the so called "plug in hybrids" that use these efficient engines combined with an electric power-pack, where the car runs on electricity in dense city traffic and while cruising, but switch to fuel when accelerating at higher speeds. Then click on the "sport" button and the car combines the fuel engine and the electrical engine for maximum acceleration, and suddenly your "eco-drive" is a rocket

The new Porsche 918 Spyder concept is really showboating this technology, with a 500 HP engine + electrical engines at each wheel that seamlessly adds up to 218 HP extra when/where needed, and in "eco-mode" it can cruise with a fuel consumption of 3 liter/100 km!
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1982 Porsche 924 na My 924 blog
1990 Porsche 928 S4 My 928 blog
1995 Fiat barchetta
2007 BMW 318d M-Sport
2010 Volvo V50

[356speedster]

BTW: The Ferrari 599 concept is interesting. Take a look at this video:

http://www.streetfire.net/video/ferrari-hykers-hybrid-599-concept-car_740215.htm

Notice how the electrical motor is attached to the rear of the tranny! maybe sometime in the future we can buy a 100 HP "addon" electric powerpack to our old beloved rear transmission cars
_________________
1982 Porsche 924 na My 924 blog
1990 Porsche 928 S4 My 928 blog
1995 Fiat barchetta
2007 BMW 318d M-Sport
2010 Volvo V50

[Paul]

It won't matter what we use within a decade or two since all of our cars will be on the grid and able to deduct money from our bank accounts everytime we violate any traffic law.
_________________
White 87 924S "Ghost"
Silver 98 986 3.6l 320 HP "Frank N Stein"
White 01 986 "Christine"
Polar Silver 02 996TT. "Turbo"
Owned and repaired 924s since 1977
Porsche: It's not driving, it's therapy.

[Mike9311]

[CorsePerVita]

I say we just ditch all of our cars and get diesel rabbits. Great MPG right there. Yeehaw!
_________________
- 1977 Porsche 924 2.0 N/A (Trackday Project)
- 1979 Porsche 924 2.0 N/A (The other daily)
- 1980 Porsche 931 (Daily)
- 1987 Lamborghini Jalpa
- 1999 Ducati 900SS

[356speedster]

Well... there is a reason why these low consumption engines grow in popularity, and that is the petrol price in Europe. Here in Norway the petrol cost about 8$ per gallon now, and I believe that's quite a bit more than in the US. Personally I will save about 4000$ a year on commuting alone, by trading the Voyager with the "oil burner" then add my wifes mileage and we will save over 6000$ a year just on fuel! I could get a 924 Turbo in decent shape for that amount, or I could buy a 500+ HP supercharger kit for my 928!!

When this is the situation I'll gladly commute in a 1.6 diesel and play with my old Porsche's in the weekend instead. Commuting with old petrol cars just don't make sense with the current petrol prices. It will take more time before the situation is the same in the US, but it will come.

Mike9311, it's coming, as I mentioned the small engines are being develop first because of an urgent need, and since the need is so urgent it's easier for the manufacturers to start with the diesel engines. But the technology is being transferred to larger petrol engines too, direct injection and large variable turbo's combined with small superchargers will result in superior performance per cubic inch with max torque from 1500 rpm and to the redline, low consumption and low engine weight which again improves weight distribution and handling. The new "eco-friendly" TSI petrol engines from VW put out 120-130 HP per liter displacement, and these are not "performance engines" but engines built to be reliable engines for daily drivers. Transfer that "formula" to a 3 liter engine and you get close to 400 HP from a relatively small, light and reliable engine.

With the high fuel prices and taxation systems that change toward emission based taxes, this is natural evolution, and I doubt it will take the joy of driving away from us. As long as we are willing to "buy" a driving experience, there will be manufacturers like Porsche ready to create it
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1982 Porsche 924 na My 924 blog
1990 Porsche 928 S4 My 928 blog
1995 Fiat barchetta
2007 BMW 318d M-Sport
2010 Volvo V50

[CorsePerVita]

Wonderful points, speedster. This makes a lot of sense as to why the US is having such a hard time getting on board, as compared to other countries, too.
_________________
- 1977 Porsche 924 2.0 N/A (Trackday Project)
- 1979 Porsche 924 2.0 N/A (The other daily)
- 1980 Porsche 931 (Daily)
- 1987 Lamborghini Jalpa
- 1999 Ducati 900SS

[924RACR]

Exactly - there's virtually no market for it.

But GM's pushing hard to get the Volt out - and it'll be a completely different solution, IMO, than the Prius.
_________________
Vaughan Scott
Webmeister
'79 924 #77 SCCA H Prod racecar
'82 931 Plat. Silver
#25 Hidari Firefly P2 sports prototype

[Mike9311]

[reilly525i]