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Suspension Upgrades for Ideola's Ultra Wide Body 931
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ideola  



Joined: 01 Oct 2004
Posts: 15451
Location: Woodstock IL

PostPosted: Sat Feb 07, 2009 10:29 am    Post subject: Suspension Upgrades for Ideola's Ultra Wide Body 931 Reply with quote

I've been slowly collecting the pieces for the suspension, and have spent a good part of the winter media blasting and prepping for rebuild. This will be the next major sub-project. I have all of the major components, most of them photographed below:

Mookeh "pillow ball" adjustable camber plates


400# front springs & helpers


Ground Control fully adjustable coil-over struts housings loaded with adjustable Koni inserts; custom valved rear coil-over Koni shocks


Front spindles from 1986 951 (to accommodate Brembo calipers)


Front hubs from 1986 951


Front A-Arms (late offset) from 1989 944S


Dust shields


Rear hubs from 1989 944S


Rear trailing arms from 1989 944S


Adjustable spring plates with rubber bushings removed


Torsion tube carriers


Wheel bearings and CV boot kits


Torsion carrier

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88 924S SE | 82 931 Holbert | 81 Euro 931 | 81 Weissach | 80 US 928 | 80 US 931 '941' | 78 D-Prod Replica | 78 w/D-Prod kit | 78 Poli-Form | 78 Limited Edition


Last edited by ideola on Sat Jul 18, 2009 3:46 am; edited 2 times in total
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ideola  



Joined: 01 Oct 2004
Posts: 15451
Location: Woodstock IL

PostPosted: Sat Feb 07, 2009 10:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Next week I am planning to order all of the bushings required to re-assemble the rolling portion of the suspension, comprised of the following bits:
  • Paragon updated castor block (rear of A-arm, PP951.341.023.01)
  • Weltmeister poly bushings for front of A-arm (PB-1030, set of 4)
  • Weltmeister poly spring plate bushings, inner & outer (PB-017 & PB-018)
  • Weltmeister front torsion tube main bushing (PB-021)
  • Weltmeister rear torsion tube mount (PB-022)
  • Racer's Edge trailing arm main bushing (MC2550-D)
Paragon offers this in a package for just under $490.

After much consideration and persuasion for Vaughan and Todd, I've elected not to go with the monoball since this car will be seeing significant street duty. I can always upgrade later (once I learn how to drive!) in order to wring the last bit of handling from this beast.

I am also going to get the Rennbay geometry correction ball joint rebuild kit for my a-arms. I wanted to go with some aftermarket versions, but at a minimum of $1K, I've decided that will also be a future upgrade if I ever destroy the stock alu units.

Not as critical for getting the car rolling are the sway bar components. I have the 968 M030 front and rear sways, so I will be getting the following components for them:
  • KLA front sway brace
  • Racer's Edge delrin sway bar end bushings (MC4300)
  • Racer's Edge delrin front sway drop links (MC4200; only 1 per side...these need to be paired with a stock rubber unit)
  • Paragon OEM replacement front sway drop link (PP951.343.795.01)
  • Racer's Edge delrin front center sway bushings (MC4100)
  • KLA drop link heim joint kit
  • Paragon OEM replacement for rear sway center bushings (PP477.411.313B)
I am still debating about replacing the stock OEM rubber bushings for the torsion carrier and the torsion carrier wings. Fastech makes these, but at this point, I'm going to focus on the primary suspension. If budget allows, I will definitely consider replacing these with solid mount, but according to Vaughan, there's not much deflection in that part of the suspension, so I'm going to hold off on those for now.

I also have the Brembo four pot calipers.

I'll be researching my brake rotor and pad options next, but those don't have to be acquired until much later, as I have used brake rotors to put on for now, just in order to be able to roll the chassis around when the suspension is bolted up.
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88 924S SE | 82 931 Holbert | 81 Euro 931 | 81 Weissach | 80 US 928 | 80 US 931 '941' | 78 D-Prod Replica | 78 w/D-Prod kit | 78 Poli-Form | 78 Limited Edition


Last edited by ideola on Sat Jul 18, 2009 3:46 am; edited 2 times in total
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Rich H  



Joined: 10 Jun 2007
Posts: 2665
Location: Preston, Lancs, UK

PostPosted: Sat Feb 07, 2009 11:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looking good Dan!

It's like a giant meccano set just waiting to be built.


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bruni  



Joined: 26 Jul 2008
Posts: 114
Location: South Africa

PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 9:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Dan
Quote:
I am also going to get the Rennbay geometry correction ball joint rebuild kit for my a-arms. I wanted to go with some aftermarket versions, but at a minimum of $1K, I've decided that will also be a future upgrade if I ever destroy the stock alu units.


I have not seen this kit before it looks a good option for a road car, however you will need to lower the track rod end or raise the rack to compensate for the change in angle of the track control arm, if you don't you will have serious bump steer, I'm sure you're already on the case but I could not see anything on your parts list
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bruni  



Joined: 26 Jul 2008
Posts: 114
Location: South Africa

PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 9:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Dan
Quote:
I am also going to get the Rennbay geometry correction ball joint rebuild kit for my a-arms. I wanted to go with some aftermarket versions, but at a minimum of $1K, I've decided that will also be a future upgrade if I ever destroy the stock alu units.


I have not seen this kit before it looks a good option for a road car, however you will need to lower the track rod end or raise the rack to compensate for the change in angle of the track control arm, if you don't you will have serious bump steer, I'm sure you're already on the case but I could not see anything on your parts list
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ideola  



Joined: 01 Oct 2004
Posts: 15451
Location: Woodstock IL

PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 9:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bruni
thanks, yeah, I have new tie rods on the list and haven't sorted out what to do with the rod end just yet, as I haven't found an off-the-shelf "kit". My short term goal (i.e. this month) is just to get the basics bolted back up so I can roll the chassis around in the garage, so I still have time to figure that piece out. I will probably be calling around to Paragon and a few other places to see what they can suggest, otherwise, I may just go to one of the larger, more general race suppliers and put together a rod end setup that achieves the desired effect, once I know how much adjustment will be required.
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88 924S SE | 82 931 Holbert | 81 Euro 931 | 81 Weissach | 80 US 928 | 80 US 931 '941' | 78 D-Prod Replica | 78 w/D-Prod kit | 78 Poli-Form | 78 Limited Edition
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ideola  



Joined: 01 Oct 2004
Posts: 15451
Location: Woodstock IL

PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 9:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I talked to Paragon today, they are not aware of a bump steer kit specifically for the 924/944. However, I did dig up a couple of possible alternatives.

Elephant Racing makes a kit that appears to be workable for the 944: http://www.elephantracing.com/suspension/bumpsteer/944bumpsteer.htm

And Weltmeister also makes a kit that is similar but built specifically for the 911/914: http://www.weltmeister.com/ProductDetails.aspx?productID=367

A thread over on Pelican indicated that the Welty kit looks compatible, but raised the concern that the end might not fit inside 15" wheels, although I'm not sure that's an issue with my setup...I won't know until I get things bolted up and check the orientation of the wheel. I am planning to run 16" Rials, so this direction seems to have some promise. I'll contact Elephant to confirm compatibility with the 944.
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88 924S SE | 82 931 Holbert | 81 Euro 931 | 81 Weissach | 80 US 928 | 80 US 931 '941' | 78 D-Prod Replica | 78 w/D-Prod kit | 78 Poli-Form | 78 Limited Edition
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morghen  



Joined: 21 Jan 2005
Posts: 8126
Location: Romania

PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looks interesting...but it also looks like it will eigther kill the spindle mounting hole or that M12 bolt on top...and isnt the spindle hole conical?
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924RACR  



Joined: 29 Jul 2001
Posts: 8232
Location: Royal Oak, MI, USA

PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 11:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That kit looks nice - Elephant does have nice stuff. But Dan, didn't I give you a pair of front uprights set up for bump steer correction? OK, one turned out to be bent, but it should be possible to bore out the knuckle on another spindle to accept the adapter...
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ideola  



Joined: 01 Oct 2004
Posts: 15451
Location: Woodstock IL

PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 10:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

924RACR wrote:
That kit looks nice - Elephant does have nice stuff. But Dan, didn't I give you a pair of front uprights set up for bump steer correction? OK, one turned out to be bent, but it should be possible to bore out the knuckle on another spindle to accept the adapter...

C'mon Vaughan, you know nothing is never that easy with these cars

As it turns out, those spindles you gave me with the drop link spacers will not work with my setup due to the caliper spacing. They appear to me to be the bonafide D-Prod spindles. The caliper bolt spacing is setup to accommodate the bigger single pot 911 calipers of that era, which are inconveniently almost exactly halfway between the spacing required for standard issue 944 single pot calipers and the later Brembo 4-pot calipers. So the spindles won't work for me regardless, even if the one side wasn't bent. I'm committed to the 4-pot caliper setup, as it's the best bang for the buck, and I don't see any point going with the earlier single pot calipers, even though they're probably better than the 924 single pot caliper of that same era.

As for the drop link spacers, they would still require machining out the tie rod attachment hole, and then I'd still have to source different rod ends, along with a suitable fasteners. It can certainly be done, and in fact, I have not ruled that out as an option...I may end up using the spacers and sourcing the rest of the bits from off-the-shelf race-grade rod end hardware. However, I'm not sure it will be any cheaper going that route than to just buy a kit from Elephant that is already configured for 944 spindles. I still have to do some price comparisons to sort out if sourcing my own kit would be any cheaper than buying Elephant's.
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88 924S SE | 82 931 Holbert | 81 Euro 931 | 81 Weissach | 80 US 928 | 80 US 931 '941' | 78 D-Prod Replica | 78 w/D-Prod kit | 78 Poli-Form | 78 Limited Edition
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bruni  



Joined: 26 Jul 2008
Posts: 114
Location: South Africa

PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 10:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Weltmeister looks the best kit to me, the elephant is over complicated with addition of the yolk. The steering arm will have to be drilled out to take the 12mm bolt but thats no big deal. The track rod end should be dropped the same amount as the outer track control arm, this will bring the steering geometry back to the std Porsche setting. Now I have not checked but some people seem to think that the standard Porsche setting has some bump steer, this is possible as they may have designed this in, however i would be surprised if there was very much. Given that you are not out to produce the ultimate track car, I would stick with dropping the TCA and track rod end exactly the same amount
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morghen  



Joined: 21 Jan 2005
Posts: 8126
Location: Romania

PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 1:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yea...what about feel? does it go away?
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ideola  



Joined: 01 Oct 2004
Posts: 15451
Location: Woodstock IL

PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 4:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Definitely some opportunity to save a few $$$ by coming up with an independently sourced "kit" containing rod ends, safety retaining washers, spacers, and hardware. The interesting thing is that the 14mm rod ends are about 2x the cost of 12mm. I believe our rod ends are 14mm. I'm guestimating the cost at being somewhere around $200 for everything, vs. the $350 for the ERP kit.
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88 924S SE | 82 931 Holbert | 81 Euro 931 | 81 Weissach | 80 US 928 | 80 US 931 '941' | 78 D-Prod Replica | 78 w/D-Prod kit | 78 Poli-Form | 78 Limited Edition
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ideola  



Joined: 01 Oct 2004
Posts: 15451
Location: Woodstock IL

PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2009 12:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just picked these up last weekend for the UWB project.

Borbet 8.5Jx17ET13 fronts / 10Jx17ET20 rears


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88 924S SE | 82 931 Holbert | 81 Euro 931 | 81 Weissach | 80 US 928 | 80 US 931 '941' | 78 D-Prod Replica | 78 w/D-Prod kit | 78 Poli-Form | 78 Limited Edition


Last edited by ideola on Sat Jul 18, 2009 3:48 am; edited 1 time in total
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Joes924Racer  



Joined: 03 Nov 2002
Posts: 11960
Location: Oregon, Denver Colorado native!

PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2009 4:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

One word ...what the yeck is a BORBET. Yea those will work,
neat.
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