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bruce76-924
Joined: 22 Feb 2007 Posts: 105 Location: Bradford, England
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Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2007 8:57 pm Post subject: Wide band verses standard O2? |
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Guys,
Just sorting the wiring out on the car at the moment and decided this is the time to fit some sort of mixure guage. Is it worth the money for wideband O2 systems or is that only needed when mapping an efi engine? Will a standand O2 sensor and guage not give me enough info? Or am I missing something here?
Cheers, Bruce. _________________ 1976 924 LHD, full cage, semi tube chassis, 951 brakes, lightweight 951 body panels.
1.8t engine conversion with Holset turbo and 6 speed Audi gearbox. |
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Min
Joined: 04 Nov 2002 Posts: 2368 Location: Vernon, British Columbia, Canada
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Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2007 11:09 pm Post subject: Re: Wide band verses standard O2? |
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bruce76-924 wrote: | Guys,
Just sorting the wiring out on the car at the moment and decided this is the time to fit some sort of mixure guage. Is it worth the money for wideband O2 systems or is that only needed when mapping an efi engine? Will a standand O2 sensor and guage not give me enough info? Or am I missing something here?
Cheers, Bruce. |
In my opinion, a narrowband o2 sensor is fairly useless except for tuning cruise conditions (which is what they are used for in oem situations) They give you two options ... rich, or lean ... A wideband will give you a much better look at whats actually going on with your motors fueling. I personally feel that a wideband would be worth it. Knowing what your motor is doing is half the battle. If you have a wideband and a AFR gauge on your dash someplace, if something goes wrong (like a dead fuelpump or something similiar) it will be pretty obvious right away. Becuase your numbers will start looking weird.
Min _________________ Custom means it didn't come from a box.
1980 n/a with EDIS and Megasquirt II Injection. 7 different colors and counting. |
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bruce76-924
Joined: 22 Feb 2007 Posts: 105 Location: Bradford, England
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Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2007 9:15 am Post subject: |
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Min,
I was pretty sure that was the way to go, but it's always better to hear from someone who's using it rather than someone trying to sell me it.
Cheers, Bruce. _________________ 1976 924 LHD, full cage, semi tube chassis, 951 brakes, lightweight 951 body panels.
1.8t engine conversion with Holset turbo and 6 speed Audi gearbox. |
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endwrench
Joined: 07 Dec 2002 Posts: 1631 Location: Victor, Montana
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Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2007 11:27 am Post subject: |
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If you have no actual way of tuning (programmable EFI etc.) then a narrow band may be all you really need to monitor "rich or lean". I've never actually used a wide band so all I can say is a narrow band has served me pretty well so far.
Todd _________________ '79 924NA. Rebuilt 9.5:1, MSDS header, Mega Squirt Injection, MJLJ-EDIS Ignition, 1.6L Whipple Charger and Intercooler, 10lbs Boost, 944 Trans, Custom HD Clutch.
"simsport" said....superchargers are better than turbos its official!.... |
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RC
Joined: 25 Mar 2007 Posts: 2636 Location: Australia
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Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2007 12:11 pm Post subject: |
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Endwrench wrote:
Quote: | If you have no actual way of tuning (programmable EFI etc.) then a narrow band may be all you really need to monitor "rich or lean". I've never actually used a wide band so all I can say is a narrow band has served me pretty well so far.
Todd |
Me too Todd. I`ll second that!
A WB sensor will be able to give a somewhat more accurate indication at the extremes of the rich/lean scale if thats a major concern.
I have been using a GM 4wire NB connected to an electronic microprocessor that "expands" the sensor output voltage and gives an analogue indication and a 3 digit digital AF reading. This gives a similar broad range accuracy to a WB sensor at a fraction of the price.
These are relative common in OZ as it was designed by Silicon Chip engineers and available in kit form for around $50.
Roger |
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Min
Joined: 04 Nov 2002 Posts: 2368 Location: Vernon, British Columbia, Canada
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Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2007 1:03 pm Post subject: |
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Do you have scientific data that proves its 'as accurate' as a wideband? ....
you use terms like 'somewhat' and 'similiar', buy a wideband instead of a bandaid. I can get a wideband controller for 161 dollars canadian. Not exactly a huge expense.
Min _________________ Custom means it didn't come from a box.
1980 n/a with EDIS and Megasquirt II Injection. 7 different colors and counting. |
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Raceboy
Joined: 01 Mar 2004 Posts: 2326 Location: Estonia, Europe
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Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2007 8:32 pm Post subject: |
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Sorry guys but NB is NOT a match to WB by any standards except for cruise/light load conditions like Min stated.
With NB you don't have any clue whether AFR is 10:1 or 13:1 because NB sensor shows "rich" below 14.2-14.3. Expanders and such are only a guess, not a real data.
But boy what a difference it makes going from AFR 10:1 to 12:1 in performance _________________ '83 924 2.6 16v Turbo, 470hp
'67 911 2.4S hotrod
'90 944 S2 Cabriolet
'78 924 Carrera GT replica
'84 928 S, sold
'91 944 S2, sold
'82 924S/931 "Gulf", sold
'84 924, turbocharged, sold.
http://www.facebook.com/vemsporsche |
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special-tool
Joined: 08 Jul 2005 Posts: 64 Location: Bethel, Ct.
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Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2007 9:47 pm Post subject: |
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Raceboy wrote: | Sorry guys but NB is NOT a match to WB by any standards except for cruise/light load conditions like Min stated.
With NB you don't have any clue whether AFR is 10:1 or 13:1 because NB sensor shows "rich" below 14.2-14.3. Expanders and such are only a guess, not a real data.
But boy what a difference it makes going from AFR 10:1 to 12:1 in performance |
True - there is no comparison.
A narrowband is a switch, if you are not a computer, you are not fast enough to use it like a wideband. _________________ 951 566/485 HP/TQ at the wheels - pump gas
924S GTR conversion project
Honda 250R- PWK 35mm flat slide, 205 static, Boyesen, Wiseco, DG front/back, Uni, 14/42, |
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endwrench
Joined: 07 Dec 2002 Posts: 1631 Location: Victor, Montana
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Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 2:48 am Post subject: |
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Never said it was "as good" as a WB, only saying you can still tune a lower performance engine with a NB. You guys like to quote all the crap put out by the makers of WB's and "tuners". The NB is still far better than the old days of reading spark plugs and "real racers" did it that way for decades.
I do not think you should be tuning a 500HP Twin Turbo Wiz Bang with an NB but with some commen sense it too could be tuned to acceptable performance without any O2 at all. Perfect? No.
The NB is just another tool that will only work if applied correctly. Same as the WB. I have read plenty of horror stories on the net about people melting there engines down while tuning with a WB because they didn't know what they were doing, had it hooked improperly, listened to bad advice, didn't calibrate properly, or just plain relied on the gauge rather than their own intuition.
With this said, I still plan to buy a WB and tune my car with it because I know it is better than a NB. When I do I will post my actual before (NB) A\F and after (WB) A\F . Just to see if I am anywhere near optimum after tuning with a NB wich I have done for 5 years on a boosted motor without actually melting it down
Todd _________________ '79 924NA. Rebuilt 9.5:1, MSDS header, Mega Squirt Injection, MJLJ-EDIS Ignition, 1.6L Whipple Charger and Intercooler, 10lbs Boost, 944 Trans, Custom HD Clutch.
"simsport" said....superchargers are better than turbos its official!.... |
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Raceboy
Joined: 01 Mar 2004 Posts: 2326 Location: Estonia, Europe
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Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 4:02 am Post subject: |
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Quote: | people melting there engines down while tuning with a WB because they didn't know what they were doing, had it hooked improperly, listened to bad advice, didn't calibrate properly, or just plain relied on the gauge rather than their own intuition.
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Yes, and that's why one should not rely on plain sensors but combine the data (WB, EGT, EBP) from them and still read spark plugs. I read spark plaugs additionally and that tells pretty much all (what kind of mixture engine likes).
And of course you're not melting it down, but I bet there's some ponies hiding behind the securely rich mixture. _________________ '83 924 2.6 16v Turbo, 470hp
'67 911 2.4S hotrod
'90 944 S2 Cabriolet
'78 924 Carrera GT replica
'84 928 S, sold
'91 944 S2, sold
'82 924S/931 "Gulf", sold
'84 924, turbocharged, sold.
http://www.facebook.com/vemsporsche |
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Min
Joined: 04 Nov 2002 Posts: 2368 Location: Vernon, British Columbia, Canada
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Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 6:15 am Post subject: |
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endwrench wrote: | Never said it was "as good" as a WB, only saying you can still tune a lower performance engine with a NB. You guys like to quote all the crap put out by the makers of WB's and "tuners". The NB is still far better than the old days of reading spark plugs and "real racers" did it that way for decades. |
I know you didn't say it was 'as good' todd, RC implied it was using vague wording like 'similiar'. I havn't qouted anything from a wb maker, or 'tuners' .....
Keep in mind, I know a few 'real racers' who still like to do it the old way. They also seem to enjoy replacing pistons somewhat regularly. Gotta love carb'd roots blowers.
Min _________________ Custom means it didn't come from a box.
1980 n/a with EDIS and Megasquirt II Injection. 7 different colors and counting. |
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Min
Joined: 04 Nov 2002 Posts: 2368 Location: Vernon, British Columbia, Canada
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Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 6:18 am Post subject: |
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Raceboy wrote: | And of course you're not melting it down, but I bet there's some ponies hiding behind the securely rich mixture. |
I definately agree with that, the first few times I tuned my motor, I used endwrenchs method of tuning using a narrowband. It tuned things just fine (read I didn't blow up my motor) However, When I installed a wideband later, and started tuning towards AFR targets using the wideband, my motor came alive. But on a 115hp motor, picking up even 5 hp is a good improvement, with your blower todd, if you picked up 5hp, who knows if you could even tell?
Min _________________ Custom means it didn't come from a box.
1980 n/a with EDIS and Megasquirt II Injection. 7 different colors and counting. |
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endwrench
Joined: 07 Dec 2002 Posts: 1631 Location: Victor, Montana
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Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 6:41 am Post subject: |
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Hmmm, sorry if I sounded a little cranky . I'm getting older and am beginning sound like the OLD guys I used humor as I listened to the stories of how they used to do it .
Min, I hope I am far enough off that I pick up 5-10% not HP!
Raceboy, I like the way you put that, atleast I am "securely rich" in aspect of my life
Todd _________________ '79 924NA. Rebuilt 9.5:1, MSDS header, Mega Squirt Injection, MJLJ-EDIS Ignition, 1.6L Whipple Charger and Intercooler, 10lbs Boost, 944 Trans, Custom HD Clutch.
"simsport" said....superchargers are better than turbos its official!.... |
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Min
Joined: 04 Nov 2002 Posts: 2368 Location: Vernon, British Columbia, Canada
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Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 7:12 am Post subject: |
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endwrench wrote: | Min, I hope I am far enough off that I pick up 5-10% not HP! |
I think you will be impressed by how nicely wideband's work in general. But like Raceboy says, I wouldn't rely on it solely, EGT is important, TIT if you have a turbo, etc. I also personally rely on my fuel pressure gauge quite a bit. I've had 3 fuel pressure regulators die on me since i megasquirted my car (its what i get for buying junkyard fpr's) I bought a msd-2222 this time around, hopefully it works alot better, it seems to as far as diaphram response etc.
Min _________________ Custom means it didn't come from a box.
1980 n/a with EDIS and Megasquirt II Injection. 7 different colors and counting. |
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924RACR
Joined: 29 Jul 2001 Posts: 8794 Location: Royal Oak, MI, USA
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Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 10:34 pm Post subject: |
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This cheap wideband reader has popped up recently...
http://14point7.com/JAW/JAW.htm _________________ Vaughan Scott
Webmeister
'79 924 #77 SCCA H Prod racecar
'82 931 Plat. Silver
#25 Hidari Firefly P2 sports prototype |
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